INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
I

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office
Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

v

Foreword

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive Order No. 11130, creating a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." By the same Executive order, the President appointed seven Commissioners: Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the United States; Richard B. Russell, Democratic Senator from Georgia; John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky; Hale Boggs, Democratic Congressman from Louisiana and House Majority Whip; Gerald R. Ford, Republican Congressman from Michigan; Allen W. Dulles, former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and John J. McCloy, former High Commissioner of Germany. The President designated Chief Justice Warren as the Commission's Chairman. The findings of the Commission, based on an examination of all the facts, are set forth in the separate volume entitled "Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy."

An essential part of the investigation conducted by this Commission has been the securing of sworn testimony from witnesses possessing information relevant to the inquiry. This testimony has been taken under the authority of Senate Joint Resolution 137 (88th Cong., 1st sess.), enacted by Congress on December 13, 1963, which conferred upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas. Under the procedures adopted by the Commission, some witnesses have appeared before members of the Commission, others have been questioned under oath on depositions by members of the staff, and others have provided affidavits to the Commission. Beginning with its first witness on February 3, 1964, the Commission under these procedures took the testimony of approximately 550 witnesses and received more than 3,100 exhibits into evidence.

The testimony and exhibits obtained by the Commission are printed in this and the succeeding volumes, organized in the following order:

(1)   Testimony before members of the Commission, in the order in which it was taken.

(2)   Testimony by sworn deposition or affidavit, grouped into four general subject categories; the medical attention given to the President and the Governor, identification of the assassin of President Kennedy, the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack L. Ruby on November 24, 1963.

(3)   Exhibits introduced in connection with the testimony before the Commission in numerical order.

(4)   Exhibits introduced in connection with sworn depositions and affidavits, grouped alphabetically by name of witness.

(5)   Other exhibits introduced before the Commission in numerical order.

The transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court reporters, were reviewed by members of the Commission staff and, in most instances, by the witness concerned. Editing of the transcript prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. In the few cases indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of the Commission's investigation. All the original transcripts prepared by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which will apply to all records of this Commission.

vi Each volume contains a brief preface discussing the contents of the volume. In addition, each volume of testimony contains a table of contents with the names of the witnesses whose testimony appears in the volume, and the numbers of the exhibits introduced in connection with that testimony. Each volume of exhibits contains a table of contents with short descriptions of the exhibits reproduced in the volume. Volume XV contains a name index setting forth all references to persons (other than Lee Harvey Oswald) appearing in the Hearings volumes and an index setting forth all references to Commission exhibits and Deposition exhibits in these volumes.

vii

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume I: Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald; Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, Oswald's mother; Robert Edward Lee Oswald, Oswald's brother; and James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as Mrs. Marina Oswald's business manager.

ix

Contents

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Monday, February 3, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters.

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald, did you have a good trip here?

The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the record, I should like to read it.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, the interpreter——

The Chairman. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the end he may do that.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining witnesses and the receiving of evidence.

2 The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

The Chairman. And your lawyer is Mr. Thorne?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

The Chairman. He is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

The Chairman. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a copy of this?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, that is the copy he received there.

Mr. Thorne. I have read a copy of it, Mr. Chief Justice, yes, sir.

The Chairman. Are there any questions about it?

Mr. Thorne. There are no questions.

The Chairman. Very well.

Very well, we will proceed to swear Mrs. Oswald as a witness.

Will you please rise, Mrs. Oswald.

(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald, through the interpreter.)

The Chairman. Mr. Reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn.

(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the interpreter.)

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want, either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she has said you may feel free to ask them.

After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you?

Mr. Thorne. Very satisfactory, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock, and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free to say so and we will take care of it.

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you.

The Chairman. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission.

I think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers.

Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. Oswald. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden name was Prussakova.

Mr. Rankin. Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. At the present time I live in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. And where in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Mr. Thorne knows my address.

Mr. Thorne. 11125 Ferrar Street, Dallas, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. Rankin. Do you live with friends there?

Mrs. Oswald. I live with Mr. Jim Martin and his family.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you have a family?

Mrs. Oswald. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old in February, and Rachel is 3 months old.

Mr. Rankin. Are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

3 Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your experiences in the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I have. I think that you are familiar with it.

Mr. Rankin. You furnished it to the Commission, did you not, or a copy of it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this document in Russian that you furnished to us?

Mrs. Oswald. I wrote this document not specifically for this Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days.

Mr. Rankin. And by "him" who did you mean?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any assistance in preparing this document in Russian?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one.

Mr. Rankin. Are all the statements in that document true insofar as you know?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I did.

Mr. Rankin. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in those interviews, is that true?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not everything was true.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us——

Mrs. Oswald. It is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? Will you tell us that?

Mrs. Oswald. At the present time, I can't remember any specific instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up I will say so.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. On the 13th of June, 1962—I am not quite certain as to the year—'61 or '62, I think '62.

Mr. Rankin. How did you come to this country?

Mrs. Oswald. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New York to Dallas by air.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was the SS Rotterdam but I am not sure.

Mr. Rankin. What time of the day did you arrive in New York?

Mrs. Oswald. It was—about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to remember the exact time.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay in New York at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in New York, and then we left the following day by air.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do during your stay in New York?

Mrs. Oswald. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order to arrange for tickets, and so forth.

4 Mr. Rankin. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during that period?

Mrs. Oswald. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them in English and I didn't understand it.

Mr. Rankin. Would that be a Travelers' Aid Bureau or Red Cross?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American Embassy in Moscow.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight to Texas?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that by about 5 p.m. we were already in Texas.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go to Dallas or Fort Worth at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at the house.

Mr. Rankin. Who else stayed at Robert's house at that time besides your family?

Mrs. Oswald. His family and no one else.

Mr. Rankin. What did his family consist of at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay at Robert's?

Mrs. Oswald. About 1 to 1½ months—perhaps longer, but no longer than 2 months.

Mr. Rankin. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us was very good.

Mr. Rankin. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time when you were at Robert's?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the household.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he seek work right away?

Mrs. Oswald. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to the library. That is it.

Mr. Rankin. Then did he seek work in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he find his first job there?

Mrs. Oswald. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that we live with her for some time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your mother-in-law to have you live with her?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of course, I found out about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found out about it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. You recall that discussion?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I only remember the fact.

Mr. Rankin. Did he find work after you left Robert's then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her for a time?

5 Mrs. Oswald. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the reason why he did not want to live there any more?

Mrs. Oswald. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I know this for sure.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that at the time?

Mrs. Oswald. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and Lee felt that he had done most of—the greatest effort in that respect and didn't want to discuss it.

Mr. Rankin. Where did he find work at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know, but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived, and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, something for buildings.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't like it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how long he stayed at that job?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was discharged?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know why.

Mr. Rankin. When you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go?

Mrs. Oswald. I have already said that we moved to Mercedes Street.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have an apartment there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the address on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember the exact number.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had?

Mrs. Oswald. Living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom.

Mr. Rankin. This was the first time since you had come to this country then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No, we had our own home in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband work a full day at that time on this job?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sometimes he even worked on Saturdays.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do when he came home, did he help you with housework?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He frequently went to a library. He read a great deal.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of the books that he read at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical nature rather than fiction or literature.

Mr. Rankin. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that?

Mrs. Oswald. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it happened.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have differences between you about the time that he spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of the family?

Mrs. Oswald. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading.

6 Mr. Rankin. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at Mercedes Street the first time.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, we didn't have many quarrels.

Mr. Rankin. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit you or did you visit him?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he came to us sometimes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother-in-law come to see you at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for her, I don't want her to come here any more."

Mr. Rankin. During this period did your husband spend much time with the baby, June?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He loved children very much.

Mr. Rankin. Did you obtain a television set at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then returned it. Should I speak a little louder?

Mr. Rankin. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing the payments?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he only guaranteed the payments.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much the television set cost?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. So far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's income?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with the welding company?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he try to find another job in Fort Worth then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one then?

Mrs. Oswald. He looked for work for some time but he could not find it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. How long was he out of work?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember, perhaps that long.

Mr. Rankin. Where did he find work in Dallas, do you remember the name?

Mrs. Oswald. I know it was some kind of a printing company which prepares photographs for newspapers.

Mr. Rankin. Was he working with the photographic department of that company?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the welding company?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it was a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. Rankin. Did he work much overtime at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Not too much but sometimes he did work Saturdays.

7 Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing company?

Mrs. Oswald. A dollar forty an hour.

Mr. Rankin. How many hours did he work a week, do you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked later, and on Saturdays, too.

Mr. Rankin. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find this job in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. George Bouhe.

Mr. Rankin. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him we became acquainted with others.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that you knew in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford.

Mr. Rankin. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. George De Mohrenschildt—this was both in Fort Worth and Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you met in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives in Dallas?

Mr. Rankin. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those you had already met in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt—no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. Did these friends visit you at your home in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and see us.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever visit them in their homes?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several times to visit them.

Mr. Rankin. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you describe that?

Mrs. Oswald. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during this period?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they visited you?

Mrs. Oswald. No. They usually brought—they usually came for short visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers, George liked cucumbers.

Mr. Rankin. When you moved to Dallas, where did you live the first time?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived with Elena Hall.

Mr. Rankin. For how long a period did you live with Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that it was about a month and a half.

Mr. Rankin. During that month and a half what did your husband do?

8 Mrs. Oswald. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know during that month and a half where he lived?

Mrs. Oswald. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMCA but very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. During that month and a half did he come and see you and the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had no car. It was not very easy.

Mr. Rankin. Were these trips to see you on the weekends?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When he came did he also stay at the Hall's?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for your room and your meals?

Mrs. Oswald. No. No, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to help us.

Mr. Rankin. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you? Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some place?

Mrs. Oswald. No, we didn't go anywhere.

Mr. Rankin. Did he do any reading there?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could not stay very long.

Mr. Rankin. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had been doing in Dallas, his work and other things?

Mrs. Oswald. He liked his work very much.

Mr. Rankin. After this month and a half did he find a place for you all to live together?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no problem there to find a place.

Mr. Rankin. Did you then move to a home in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, on Elsbeth, Elsbeth Street in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember the number?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place on Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. A friend who had a car helped us—I don't remember his name, Taylor, Gary Taylor.

The Chairman. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself.

(Short recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission may be in order.

Mr. Rankin. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. One trip was enough.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it rooms or an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. An apartment.

Mr. Rankin. How many rooms in the apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a telephone there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what rent you paid?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that it was $60, plus the utilities.

Mr. Rankin. That would be $60 a month?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty dollars a month including water.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband help you with the housework at that address?

9 Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he always helped.

Mr. Rankin. What about his reading habits there, were they the same?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, about the same.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did he spend several hours each evening in this reading?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of the books that he read at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of the United States.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband come home for a midday meal?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go out in the evenings?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you go?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream.

Mr. Rankin. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food with you and have a picnic?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or what means of transportation?

Mrs. Oswald. It was only 10 minutes away, 10 minutes walking time from us.

Mr. Rankin. Were either you or your husband taking any schooling at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee took English courses or typing courses.

Mr. Rankin. During what days of the week were these typing courses?

Mrs. Oswald. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses.

Mr. Rankin. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that is the way it was. I know it was on Monday.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to be at these classes?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems that it was from 7 until 9.

Mr. Rankin. About what time would he get home from work?

Mrs. Oswald. About 5 to 5:30.

Mr. Rankin. Then would you eat your evening meal?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How soon after that would he leave for the class?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home for dinner, usually he didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Did he practice his typewriting at home at all?

Mrs. Oswald. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which he would review when he was at home.

Mr. Rankin. How soon after the class was over did he come home ordinarily?

Mrs. Oswald. Nine o'clock.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these classes?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the De Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this was on Neely Street.

Mr. Rankin. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?

10 Mrs. Oswald. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember why you moved from Elsbeth to Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and that was more convenient for the child.

Mr. Rankin. What size apartment did you have on Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. The same type of apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Was the only difference the terrace then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a second-floor apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Was the Elsbeth Street apartment a first-floor apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between the two places?

Mrs. Oswald. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It seems to me it was $55.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any differences with your husband while you were at Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth.

Mr. Rankin. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of you. Did that occur at Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. No. That was on Elsbeth Street.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what brought that about?

Mrs. Oswald. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of returning to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that that—Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place. Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had in mind I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. On Elsbeth Street.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him to start to talk that way?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why he started to hit you about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't. I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his tension.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe sometime when you thought he changed?

Mrs. Oswald. I would say that immediately after coming to the United States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe how you observed these changes and what they were as you saw them?

Mrs. Oswald. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me to have anything to do with them.

He was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he did not like your Russian friends?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand. At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said some stupid or foolish things.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us the stupid things that he said?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same position being an American in America but there were really no reasons but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and everything is measured by money. It11 seems to me that perhaps he was envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear that.

Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he said foolish things.

This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on the problem. You understand that?

Mrs. Oswald. I understand you are not asking these questions out of curiosity but for a reason.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends that he disliked more than others?

Mrs. Oswald. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he—because he was a strong person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever tell him you liked these people?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put me into—put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice.

Mr. Rankin. When was this, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. On Elsbeth Street.

Mr. Rankin. How long were you gone from him then?

Mrs. Oswald. One week.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ask you to return?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat you if you returned?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for the children.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. Then he said that it would be—it was very hard for him. That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about accepting him as he was?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior.

Mr. Rankin. Then did he get in touch with you again?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that evening and he cried and said that he12 wanted me to return home because if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to change.

Mr. Rankin. While you were at Mrs. Ford's did she go to the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that you are confused—this was Elena Hall in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea of your going to Russia alone?

Mrs. Oswald. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I could work in Russia. That was all.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed that you go and he stay?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell me.

Mr. Rankin. What would you say to him at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know the reason he would not tell me.

Mr. Rankin. Is there something that you have learned since that caused you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to do?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand himself. I thought that I was the reason for that.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a job then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel that you were getting along on what he was earning?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide more for the family?

Mrs. Oswald. No. We had enough.

Mr. Rankin. You were not complaining about the way you were living?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans $200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that is not true.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia that he was proposing to break up your marriage?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say why?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in the United States I want to be free in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. During this period did he appear to be more excited and nervous?

Mrs. Oswald. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. By the later time that you just referred to what do you mean? Can you give us some approximate date?

Mrs. Oswald. When we went to Neely Street.

13 The Chairman. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. All right. Let us proceed.

(The Chairman administered the oath to Alvin I. Mills, Stenotype Reporter.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, do you have the last questions?

In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us those things that you observed that caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or that you have obtained more light on since.

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand him at that time.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

Mr. Rankin. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read—where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.

Mr. Rankin. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think—I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, it did not have a scope on it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What do we need that for?"

He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.

Mr. Rankin. In Russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You men. That is your business.

The Chairman. My wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right.

Mrs. Oswald. I have never served in the Army.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at Neely Street?

14 Mrs. Oswald. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in Russia? Was it brought over to this country?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't want to say too much.

Mr. Rankin. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. Oswald. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. You must know that the rifle—it isn't as if it was out in the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't know whether he took it with him or not.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything.

Mr. Gopadze. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it?

Mrs. Oswald. About four times—about four or five times, I think.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning the—that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after use?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be back soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at Neely Street—that is, that it was gone?

Mrs. Oswald. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs, but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take care of it himself.

I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say anything to me.

Mr. Rankin. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were asking about?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Later, after he had fired, he told me about it.

I didn't know that he intended to do it—that he was planning to do it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.

Mr. Rankin. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me. And he would mention that in passing—it isn't15 as if he said, "Well, today I am going"—it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."

But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice."

Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.

When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle, but he also had a gun, a revolver.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you remember?

Mrs. Oswald. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice—once in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs.

Mr. Rankin. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the pistol?

Mrs. Oswald. I can't say.

Mr. Rankin. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.

Mr. Rankin. Would that be at the airport—Love Field?

Mrs. Oswald. Love Field.

Mr. Rankin. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a rifle range?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was on it?

Mrs. Oswald. I hadn't paid any attention initially.

I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention.

I hope you understand. When I saw it, I thought that all rifles have that.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. That for a man to have a rifle—since I am a woman, I don't understand him, and I shouldn't bother him. A fine life.

Mr. Rankin. Is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I asked him then why he had dressed himself up like that, with the rifle and the pistol, and I thought that he had gone crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. This was not my business—it was man's business.

If I had known these were such dangerous toys, of course—you understand that I thought that Lee had changed in that direction, and I didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.

I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me—if someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Was it on a day off that you took the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. It was on a Sunday.

Mr. Rankin. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and I was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button.

16 Mr. Rankin. And he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not?

Mrs. Oswald. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the time that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a photographic album yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter occurred?

Mrs. Oswald. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know better when this happened.

Mr. Rankin. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at General Walker?

Mrs. Oswald. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I began to be worried. Perhaps even later.

Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it—you know—I was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.

Mr. Rankin. Did you look for the gun at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, "If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the exact time, but it was very late.

And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he had shot at General Walker.

Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in his state I decided I had best leave him alone—it would be purposeless to question him.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say any more than that about the shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"

He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell.

I don't know—I am not a criminologist.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he had shot at General Walker?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that he had no right to kill people in peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has the same ideas as he has. People cannot be all alike.

He said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he was the leader of a fascist organization, and when I said that even though all of that might be true, just the same he had no right to take his life, he said if someone had killed Hitler in time it would have saved many lives. I told him that this is no method to prove your ideas, by means of a rifle.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him how long he had been planning to do this?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said he had been planning for two months. Yes—perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his conduct I could tell he was planning—he had been planning this for two months or perhaps a little even earlier.

The Chairman. Would you like to take a little recess?

Mrs. Oswald. No, thank you. Better to get it over with.

17 Mr. Rankin. Did he show you a picture of the Walker house then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. That was after the shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He had a book—he had a notebook in which he noted down quite a few details. It was all in English, I didn't read it. But I noticed the photograph. Sometimes he would lock himself in his room and write in the book. I thought that he was writing some other kind of memoirs, as he had written about his life in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever read that book?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of anything else he had in it besides this Walker house picture?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Photographs and notes, and I think there was a map in there.

Mr. Rankin. There was a map of the area where the Walker house was?

Mrs. Oswald. It was a map of Dallas, but I don't know where Walker lived. Sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. Perhaps he was calculating something, but I don't know. He had a bus schedule and computed something.

After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had been using a bus.

Mr. Rankin. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus just as well as other people could use a car—something of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in the crowd and not be noticed.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he meant by it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—he said he had in mind that if in case he were arrested, I would know what to do.

Mr. Rankin. The note doesn't say anything about Walker, does it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him if that is what he meant by the note?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note and asked him "What is the meaning of this?"

Mr. Rankin. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.

Mr. Rankin. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?

Mrs. Oswald. Refresh my memory as to what?

Mr. Rankin. As to the day of the shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. It was in the middle of the week.

Mr. Rankin. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening?

Mrs. Oswald. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports.

The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been killed.

Mr. Rankin. Did he comment on that at all?

Mrs. Oswald. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.

I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that18 should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.

He said he would not repeat anything like that again.

By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed—it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.

You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always—but in this case.

Mr. Rankin. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told—your husband told him personal things that you knew of?

Mrs. Oswald. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I don't know—he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he is being accused justly of being a Communist.

Mr. Rankin. That is De Mohrenschildt that you refer to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell the authorities anything about this Walker incident when you learned about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You have told the Secret Service or the FBI people reasons why you didn't. Will you tell us?

Mrs. Oswald. Why I did not tell about it?

First, because it was my husband. As far as I know, according to the local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. But, of course, if I had known that Lee intended to repeat something like that, I would have told.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ask you to return the note to him?

Mrs. Oswald. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he destroyed it.

Mr. Rankin. That is this book that you have just referred to in which he had the Walker house picture?

Mrs. Oswald. There was a notebook, yes, that is the one.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do with the note that he had left for you after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it?

Mrs. Oswald. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two—I don't remember in which.

Mr. Rankin. Did your relations with your husband change after this Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe to us the changes as you observed them?

Mrs. Oswald. Soon after that, Lee lost his job—I don't know for what reason. He was upset by it. And he looked for work for several days. And then I insisted that it would be better for him to go to New Orleans where he had relatives. I insisted on that because I wanted to get him further removed from Dallas and from Walker, because even though he gave me his word, I wanted to have him further away, because a rifle for him was not a very good toy—a toy that was too enticing.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say that you wanted him to go to New Orleans because of the Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I simply told him that I wanted to see his home town. He had been born there.

Mr. Rankin. When he promised you that he would not do anything like that again, did you then believe him?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained in the house.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him to get rid of the rifle at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

19 Mr. Rankin. After he shot at Walker, did you notice his taking the rifle out any more to practice?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall when you went to New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was in May. Lee went there himself, by himself. At that time, I became acquainted with Mrs. Paine, and I stayed with her while he was looking for work. In about one week Lee telephoned me that he had found a job and that I should come down.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first get acquainted with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was a couple of months earlier—probably in January.

Mr. Rankin. How did you happen to go to Mrs. Paine's house to stay? Did she invite you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes; she invited me. I had become acquainted with her through some Russian friends of ours. We had visited with some people, and she was there. Inasmuch as she was studying Russian, she invited me to stay with her.

Mr. Rankin. Did you pay her anything for staying with her?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I only repaid her in the sense that I helped her in the household and that I gave her Russian language lessons. This, in her words, was the very best pay that I could give her. And she wanted that I remain with her longer.

But, of course, it was better for me to be with my husband.

Mr. Rankin. How did your husband let you know that he had found a job?

Mrs. Oswald. He telephoned me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you then leave at once for New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And how did you get to New Orleans from Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Paine took me there in her car. She took her children and my things and we went there.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have much in the way of household goods to move?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything—we could put everything into one car. But, in fact, most of the things Lee had taken with him. Because he went by bus.

Mr. Rankin. Did he take the gun with him to New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was not among my things.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you live at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Magazine Street. By the time I arrived there Lee already had rented an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. When Mrs. Paine brought you down to New Orleans, did she stay with you for any period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, she was there for two days.

Mr. Rankin. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they friendly?

Mrs. Oswald. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't like her.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he didn't like her?

Mrs. Oswald. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me—these are not my words.

Mr. Rankin. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I also—I was—I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to be a very smart woman.

Mr. Rankin. I think it is about time for a recess, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Very well. We will take a recess for 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Committee will be in order.

Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, did you discuss the Walker shooting with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I didn't tell anyone. Apart from the FBI. That is after—that is later.

Mr. Rankin. When was it that you told the FBI about the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. About 2 weeks after Lee was killed.

20 Mr. Rankin. Before you went to New Orleans, had you seen anyone from the FBI?

Mrs. Oswald. The FBI visited us in Fort Worth when we lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. Rankin. Was that in August 1962?

Mrs. Oswald. Probably.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the names of the FBI agents that visited you then?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember that Lee had just returned from work and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and man introduced himself and asked Lee to step out and talk to him.

There was another man in the car. They talked for about 2 hours and I was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. This meant more work for me. I asked who these were, and he was very upset over the fact that the FBI was interested in him.

Mr. Rankin. Did that interview take place in the car?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he said to them?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know to what extent this was true, but Lee said that the FBI had told him that in the event some Russians might visit him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the FBI agents. I don't know to what extent this was true. But perhaps Lee just said that.

Mr. Rankin. Did our husband say anything about the FBI asking him to work for them?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't tell me.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything more about what they said to him in this interview?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw Communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as I had returned from Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the Russians?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any other——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. They did ask him about whether the Russians had proposed that he be an agent for them.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what he said to them in that regard?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me that he had answered no.

Mr. Rankin. After this interview by the FBI agents, do you recall any later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went to New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. No, there were no other interviews.

The next time was in Irving, when I lived with Mrs. Paine. But that is after I returned from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. At New Orleans, who did your husband work for?

Mrs. Oswald. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co. But I don't know in what capacity. I don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps more correctly, he did not—I know that he didn't like this job.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what he received in pay from that job?

Mrs. Oswald. $1.35 an hour, I think. I am not sure.

Mr. Rankin. How long did he work for this coffee company?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was from May until August, to the end of August.

Mr. Rankin. Was he discharged?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then was he unemployed for a time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. After you had discussed with your husband your going to Russia, was anything done about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I wrote a letter to the Soviet Embassy with a request to be permitted to return. And then it seems to me after I was already in New Orleans, I wrote another letter in which I told the Embassy that my husband wants to return with me.

21 Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date of the first letter that you just referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. No. But that is easily determined.

Mr. Rankin. Were you asking for a visa to return to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with your husband his returning with you before you wrote the second letter that you have described?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't ask him. He asked me to do so one day when he was extremely upset. He appeared to be very unhappy and he said that nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he returned to the Soviet Union, and that he wants to be with me. And that it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow, not to be worried about tomorrow.

Mr. Rankin. Was this a change in his attitude?

Mrs. Oswald. Towards me or towards Russia?

Mr. Rankin. Towards going to Russia.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't think that he was too fond of Russia, but simply that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he had—after all, he had to think about his family.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know that he did get a passport?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me he always had a passport.

Mr. Rankin. While he was in New Orleans, that he got a passport?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, it seems to me that after we came here, he immediately received a passport. I don't know. I always saw his green passport. He even had two—one that had expired, and a new one.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when the new one was issued?

Mrs. Oswald. No. It seems to me in the Embassy when we arrived. I don't know.

But please understand me correctly, I am not hiding this. I simply don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know about a letter from your husband to the Embassy asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't.

Mr. Rankin. When you were at New Orleans, did your husband go to school, that you knew of?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he spend his earnings with you and your child?

Mrs. Oswald. Most of the time, yes. But I know that he became active with some kind of activity in a pro-Cuban committee. I hope that is what you are looking for.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Where was it kept there?

Mrs. Oswald. He again had a closet-like room with his things in it. He had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings.

Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle in a cover there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New Orleans at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a—screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets.

Mr. Rankin. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?

22 Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said that he would go to Cuba. I told him I was not going with him—that I would stay here.

Mr. Rankin. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. Oswald. Almost every evening. He very much wanted to go to Cuba and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnapped an aircraft. And I asked him "For God sakes, don't do such a thing."

Mr. Rankin. Did he describe that idea to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he wanted to do that. And he asked me that I should help him with that. But I told him I would not touch that rifle.

This sounds very merry, but I am very much ashamed of it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that everything would go well. He was very self-reliant—if I didn't want to.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any talk of divorce during this period?

Mrs. Oswald. No. During this time, we got along pretty well not counting the incidents with Cuba. I say relatively well, because we did not really have—generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me. But, of course, I did not agree with his views.

Mr. Rankin. At this time in New Orleans did he discuss with you his views?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Mostly—most of the conversations were on the subject of Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything said about the United States—not liking the United States.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I can't say—he liked some things in Russia, he liked some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like some things here.

And I am convinced that as much as he knew about Cuba, all he knew was from books and so on. He wanted to convince himself. But I am sure that if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. Only on the moon, perhaps.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what he didn't like about the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. First of all, he didn't like the fact that there are fascist organizations here. That was one thing.

The second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find work. And that medical expenses were very high.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say who he blamed for this?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't blame anyone.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything about President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. No. At least—I was always interested in President Kennedy and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. He translated it, but never did comment on it. At least in Lee's behavior—from Lee's behavior I cannot conclude that he was against the President, and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. Perhaps he hid it from me. I don't know. He said that after 20 years he would be prime minister. I think that he had a sick imagination—at least at that time I already considered him to be not quite normal—not always, but at times. I always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any others who were around us. But he simply could not understand that.

I tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to some more practical matters, and not something like that.

23 Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you to think he was different?

Mrs. Oswald. At least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. And then the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the United States and others.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything else of that kind that caused you to think that he was different?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he compared himself to these people whose autobiographies he read. That seems strange to me, because it is necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that kind. After he became busy with his pro-Cuban activity, he received a letter from somebody in New York, some Communist—probably from New York—I am not sure from where—from some Communist leader and he was very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the letter from.

You see, when I would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent, in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that I didn't understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did, that there were people who understood his activity.

I would say that to Lee—that Lee could not really do much for Cuba, that Cuba would get along well without him, if they had to.

Mr. Rankin. You would tell that to him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And what would he say in return?

Mrs. Oswald. He shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. He was even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnapping a plane. But I talked him out of it.

Mr. Rankin. The airplane schedules from New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. New Orleans—but—from New Orleans—leaving New Orleans in an opposite direction. And he was going to make it turn around and go to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. He discussed this with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur—before or after he lost his job?

Mrs. Oswald. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such foolishness.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.

Mr. Rankin. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did he first discuss that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was in August.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico City?

Mrs. Oswald. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba—perhaps through the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about going to Russia by way of Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. I know that he said that in the embassy. But he only said so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me. I know Lee fairly well—well enough from that point of view.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go there, too, somehow.

But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to Russia, he would let me know in any case.

Mr. Rankin. Did he discuss Castro and the Cuban Government with you?

24 Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did he start to do that?

Mrs. Oswald. At the time that he was busy with that pro-Cuban activity. He was sympathetic to Castro while in Russia, and I have also a good opinion of Castro to the extent that I know. I don't know anything bad about him.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about Castro to you?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for his government, and very active.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to him?

Mrs. Oswald. I said, "Maybe." It doesn't make any difference to me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know he was writing to the Fair Play for Cuba organization in New York during this latter period in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he show you that correspondence?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did you learn that?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me about it. Or, more correctly, I saw that he was writing to them.

Mr. Rankin. Did you write the Russian Embassy in regard to your visa from New Orleans.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what address you gave in New Orleans when you wrote?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember. Sometimes I would write a letter, but Lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. That is why I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Did you get your mail in New Orleans at your apartment or at a post office box?

Mrs. Oswald. No, we had a post office box, and that is where we received our mail.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have any organization in his Fair Play for Cuba at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he had no organization. He was alone. He was quite alone.

Mr. Rankin. When did you learn about his arrest there?

Mrs. Oswald. The next day, when he was away from home overnight and returned, he told me he had been arrested.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about it?

Mrs. Oswald. He was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. I think that after that occurrence—he became less active, he cooled off a little.

Mr. Rankin. Less active in the Fair Play for Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He continued it, but more for a person's sake. I think that his heart was no longer in it.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that the FBI had seen him at the jail in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair, anything of that kind.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know he paid a fine?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with trying to get him out of jail?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

He was only there for 24 hours. He paid his fine and left. He said that the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good person.

Mr. Rankin. While you were in New Orleans, did you get to know the Murrets?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. They are his relatives. I think that Lee engaged in this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. He wanted to be arrested. I think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he would be known.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being in support of Cuba before he went to Cuba?

25 Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think he thought that would help him when he got to Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about that, or is that just what you guess?

Mrs. Oswald. He would collect the newspaper clippings about his—when the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him when he went to Mexico.

Mr. Rankin. Did the Murrets come to visit you from time to time in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—sometimes they came to us, and sometimes we went to them.

Mr. Rankin. Was that a friendly relationship?

Mrs. Oswald. I would say that they were more of a family relationship type. They were very good to us. His uncle, that is the husband of his aunt, was a very good man. He tried to reason with Lee after that incident. Lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the fact that they were all very religious.

When his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry about himself and his family, Lee would say, "Well, these are just bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare."

Mr. Krimer. The word Mrs. Oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own personal interests, inclined to be an egotist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about this Fair Play for Cuba and his activities?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did the uncle say to your husband about that?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time. I did not know English too well, and Lee would not interpret for me. He only nodded his head. But I knew that he did not agree with his uncle. His uncle said that he condemned that kind of activity.

Mr. Rankin. What was your husband's attitude about your learning English?

Mrs. Oswald. He never talked English to me at home, and did not give me any instruction. This was strictly my own business. But he did want me to learn English. But that was my own concern. I had to do that myself somehow. That is the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Did any of your Russian friends visit you at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Outside of the Murrets, were there some people from New Orleans that visited you at your home in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of Ruth Paine's. Ruth Paine has written her. She had written to Ruth Paine to find out whether she knew any Russians there. And once or twice this woman visited us. But other than that, no one.

Mr. Rankin. What was the name of this woman?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember. I only remember that her first name is also Ruth.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have friends of his that visited you there at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never.

Once some time after Lee was arrested, on a Saturday or a Sunday morning, a man came early and questioned Lee about the activity of the allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. Because in the newspaper accounts Lee was described as a member and even the leader of that organization, which in reality did not exist at all.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't. I asked Lee who that was, and he said that is probably some anti-Cuban, or perhaps an FBI agent. He represented himself as a man who was sympathetic to Cuba but Lee did not believe him.

26 Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever tell you what he told the FBI agent when they came to the jail to see him?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in response to your letter to take you back to Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come after her vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around September 30, and then came a little before that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on.

Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. After we arrived. I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs. Paine's car too?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where the pistol was.

Mr. Rankin. Before you went back to Mrs. Paine's house, did you discuss whether you would be paying her anything for board and room?

Mrs. Oswald. She proposed that I again live with her on the same conditions as before. Because this was more advantageous for her than to pay a school. She received better instruction that way.

In any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me—she didn't spend any more than she usually spent.

Mr. Rankin. Did you give her lessons in Russian?

Mrs. Oswald. No, these were not quite lessons. It was more in the nature of conversational practice. And then I also helped her to prepare Russian lessons for the purpose of teaching Russian.

Mr. Rankin. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located?

Mrs. Oswald. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were.

Mr. Rankin. In what part of the garage?

Mrs. Oswald. In that part which is closer to the street, because that garage is connected to the house. One door opens on the kitchen, and the other out in the street.

Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt end?

Mrs. Oswald. No, it was lying down on the floor.

Mr. Rankin. When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you where he would stay in Mexico City?

Mrs. Oswald. In a hotel.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you the name?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't know where he would stop.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the trip?

27 Mrs. Oswald. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say how much it would cost?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be sufficient.

Mr. Rankin. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any presents before he went?

Mrs. Oswald. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I would like, and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets. But what he did buy me I didn't like at all. When he returned to Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I had seen bracelets like that for sale there. That is why I am not sure that the bracelet was purchased in Mexico.

Lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either Dallas or New Orleans. It was a man's bracelet.

Mr. Rankin. The silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your name on it, did it not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was it too small?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I was offended because it was too small, and he promised to exchange it. But, of course, I didn't want to hurt him, and I said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention.

Mr. Rankin. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI, but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican records, but he did not do that.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know how he got to Mexico City?

Mrs. Oswald. By bus.

Mr. Rankin. And did he return by bus, also?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket was cheaper than two one-way tickets.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to Irving or to Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say where he had been in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me at the YMCA.

Mr. Rankin. Did he come right out to see you then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about his trip to Mexico City?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too much—too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well. And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would be beneficial to him.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him what he did the rest of the time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in the city.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you about anyone that he met there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

He said that he did not like the Mexican girls.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban Embassy, or consulate?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Only that he had talked to certain people there.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what people he talked to?

28 Mrs. Oswald. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with him.

Mr. Rankin. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or consulate?

Mrs. Oswald. It was quite without results.

Mr. Rankin. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans seemed to have a system similar to the Russians—too much red tape before you get through there.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico City trip that you haven't related?

Mrs. Oswald. No, that is all that I can remember about it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to Mexico City?

Mrs. Oswald. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned.

Mr. Rankin. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico City to his return, was that about 7 days?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said he was there for about a week.

Mr. Rankin. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.

Mr. Rankin. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the Mexico City trip before?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband stay with you at the Paines after that first night when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he stayed overnight there.

And in the morning we took him to Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. And by "we" who do you mean?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth Paine, I and her children.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what he did in Dallas, then?

Mrs. Oswald. He intended to rent an apartment in the area of Oak Cliff, and to look for work.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he did that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I know that he always tried to get some work. He was not lazy.

Mr. Rankin. Did he rent the apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. On the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he telephoned me and told me about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him to Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I asked him where he would live, and he said it would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about whether you would be living with him, or he would be living there alone?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not really want to be with Lee at that time, because I was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a woman who spoke English and Russian.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know where your husband looked for work in Dallas at that time?

29 Mrs. Oswald. No. He tried to get any kind of work. He answered ads, newspaper ads.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have trouble finding work again?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How long after his return was it before he found a job?

Mrs. Oswald. Two to three weeks.

Mr. Rankin. When he was unemployed in New Orleans, did he get unemployment compensation?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know how much he was getting then?

Mrs. Oswald. $33 a week. It is possible to live on that money. One can fail to find work and live. Perhaps you don't believe me. It is not bad to rest and receive money.

Mr. Rankin. When he was unemployed in Dallas, do you know whether he received unemployment compensation?

Mrs. Oswald. We were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received one more check.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with him possible places of employment after his return from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No. That was his business. I couldn't help him in that. But to some extent I did help him find a job, because I was visiting Mrs. Paine's neighbors. There was a woman there who told me where he might find some work.

Mr. Rankin. And when was this?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember. If that is important, I can try and ascertain date. But I think you probably know.

Mr. Rankin. Was it shortly before he obtained work?

Mrs. Oswald. As soon as we got the information, the next day he went there and he did get the job.

Mr. Rankin. And who was it that you got the information from?

Mrs. Oswald. It was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the school book depository. He said it seemed to him there was a vacancy there.

Mr. Rankin. What was his name?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

The Chairman. Well, I think we have arrived at our adjournment time. We will recess now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Tuesday, February 4, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 4, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the questioning of Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, there are a number of things about some of the material we have been over, the period we have been over, that I would like30 to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it. I hope you will bear with us in regard to that.

Were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book that he had typed?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he hire a public stenographer to help him with his book?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he wrote his in longhand. He started it in Russia. But he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand.

Mr. Rankin. And do you know about when he started to have it retyped here?

Mrs. Oswald. We arrived in June. I think it was at the end of June.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what happened to that book, or a copy of it?

Mrs. Oswald. At the present time it is—I don't know where—the police department or the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. And what was done with the diary? Do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where it is now. I know that it was taken. But where it is now, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. It was taken by either the FBI or the Secret Service or the police department?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know that, because I was not at home when all these things were taken.

Mr. Rankin. Would you tell us about what you know about their being taken. Were you away from home and someone else was there when various things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where this book was, whether it was at Mrs. Paine's or in Lee's apartment, because I did not see it there. I was not at Mrs. Paine's because I lived in a hotel at that time in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. What hotel was that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Was this diary kept by your husband daily, so far as you know?

Mrs. Oswald. In Russia?

Mr. Rankin. Well, Russia first.

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he had completed it in Russia. Not everything, but most of the time.

Mr. Rankin. And was it in his own handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about an interview with the FBI, when your husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in August of 1962. Do you recall whether there was an FBI interview earlier than that?

Mrs. Oswald. No, there wasn't. At least I don't know about it. Perhaps there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in Fort Worth somebody had come, when we lived with Robert. One reporter wanted to interview Lee but Lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the FBI came, too.

Mr. Rankin. The particular interview that I am asking you about was June 26, according to information from the FBI.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about it. The first time I knew about the FBI coming was when we lived in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. What rental did you pay on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any difficulties while you were on Mercedes Street with your husband—that is, any quarreling there?

Mrs. Oswald. Only in connection with his mother, because of his mother.

Mr. Rankin. Were you having any problems about finances there, on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course we did not live in luxury. We did not buy anything that was not absolutely needed, because Lee had to pay his debt to Robert and to the government. But it was not particularly difficult. At least on that basis we had not had any quarrels.

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us about De Mohrenschildt? Was he a close friend of your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee did not have any close friends, but at least he had—here in America—he had a great deal of respect for De Mohrenschildt.

31 Mr. Rankin. Could you describe that relationship. Did they see each other often?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not very frequently. From time to time.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Oswald. Because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person.

Mr. Rankin. We had a report that——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. It was pleasant to meet with him. He would bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit—with his dogs—he is very loud.

Mr. Rankin. Did you like him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Him and his wife.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand any of the conversations between your husband and De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they were held in Russian.

Mr. Rankin. Did they discuss politics or the Marxist philosophy or anything of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. Being men, of course, sometimes they talked about politics, but they did not discuss Marxist philosophy. They spoke about current political events.

Mr. Rankin. Did they have any discussions about President Kennedy or the Government in the United States at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, only George said that before she got married he knew Jackie Kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. Then he was writing a book, that is George, and with reference to that book he had written a letter to President Kennedy. This was with reference to the fact that John Kennedy had recommended physical exercise, walking and so on, and De Mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the Mexican border. And he hoped that John Kennedy would recommend his book.

I don't know—perhaps this is foolishness.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything, or either of them say anything about President Kennedy at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing bad.

Mr. Rankin. When you referred to George, did you mean Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I generally didn't believe him, that he had written a book. Sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement.

Mr. Rankin. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter?

Mrs. Oswald. He had several daughters, and many wives.

Mr. Rankin. Was one of his daughters named Taylor, her last name?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. That is a daughter of his first marriage. At the present time, I think he has—that is his fourth wife.

Mr. Rankin. And what was her——

Mrs. Oswald. It seems that that is the last one.

Mr. Rankin. What was her husband's name—the Taylor daughter?

Mrs. Oswald. Gary Taylor.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, at one time when I had to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know about when that was?

Mrs. Oswald. October or November, 1962.

Mr. Rankin. Did Gary Taylor help you to move your things at one time, move you and your daughter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he moved our things from Fort Worth to Dallas, to Elsbeth Street.

Mr. Rankin. Did he help you to move to Mrs. Hall's at any time, anyone else?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he did not move me to Mrs. Hall. But sometimes he came for a visit. Once or twice I think he came when we lived—to Mrs. Hall's, and once when we lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. Rankin. What did he do when he came? Were those just visits?

32 Mrs. Oswald. Yes, just visits. Just visits, with his wife and child.

Mr. Rankin. When the De Mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed them the rifle, did you say anything about it?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps I did say something to him, but I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything like "Look what my crazy one has done? Bought a rifle" or something of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. This sounds like something I might say. Perhaps I did.

Mr. Rankin. In the period of October 1962, you did spend some time with Mrs. Hall, did you not, in her home?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us about how that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee found work in Dallas, Elena Hall proposed that I stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and I would be company.

Mr. Rankin. Did that have anything to do with any quarrels with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. During that period of October of 1962, when your husband went to Dallas to get work, do you know where he lived?

Mrs. Oswald. I know that for—at first, for some time he stayed at the YMCA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address was a post office box.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he stayed during that period part of the time with Gary Taylor?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you live while your husband was looking for work and staying at the YMCA and at this apartment that you referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. When he stayed at the YMCA he had already found work, and I was in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. And where in Fort Worth were you staying then?

Mrs. Oswald. With Mrs. Hall.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband during this period in the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first notice that change?

Mrs. Oswald. At—at Elsbeth Street, in Dallas. After the visit of the FBI, in Fort Worth. He was for some time nervous and irritable.

Mr. Rankin. Did he seem to have two different personalities then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Would you describe to the Commission what he did to cause you to think that he was changing?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally he was—usually he was quite as he always was. He used to help me. And he was a good family man. Sometimes, apparently without reason, at least I did not know reasons, if any existed, he became quite a stranger. At such times it was impossible to ask him anything. He simply kept to himself. He was irritated by trifles.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as to help us to know the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. It is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences, sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes late, and I do mean five minutes—it is not that I am exaggerating—he would be very angry. Or if there were no butter on the table, because he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation ask, "Why is there no butter?" And at the same time if I had put the butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it.

This is foolishness, of course. A normal person doesn't get irritated by things like that.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I do not ask these questions to pry into your personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why he might have done the things he did.

I hope you understand that.

Mrs. Oswald. I understand.

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you because33 we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did such things.

Mrs. Oswald. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes it was my own fault. Sometimes it was really necessary to just leave him alone. But I wanted more attention. He was jealous. He had no reason to be. But he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in the sense of age.

Mr. Rankin. When he became jealous, did he discuss that with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember.

Basically, that I prefer others to him. That I want many things which he cannot give me. But that was not so. Once we had a quarrel because I had a young man who was a boyfriend—this was before we were married, a boy who was in love with me, and I liked him, too. And I had written him a letter from here. I had—I wrote him that I was very lonely here, that Lee had changed a great deal, and that I was sorry that I had not married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. I had mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. But this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and the letter was returned. Lee brought that letter and asked me what it was and forced me to read it. But I refused. Then he sat down across from me and started to read it to me. I was very much ashamed of my foolishness. And, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that this letter was sincere. He asked me if it was true or not, and I told him that it was true. But he thought that I did it only in order to tease him. And that was the end of it. It was a very ill-considered thing.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything more that he said at that time about that matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course after he hit me, he said that I should be ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in love with me. But this was after he hit me.

Generally, I think that was right, for such things, that is the right thing to do. There was some grounds for it.

Please excuse me. Perhaps I talk too much.

Mr. Rankin. When you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. I knew that Lee was not religious, and, therefore, I did not tell him about it. I lived in Fort Worth at that time, while he lived in Dallas.

But when June was baptized, I told him about it, and he didn't say anything about it. He said it was my business. And he said, "Okay, if you wish." He had nothing against it. He only took offense at the fact that I hadn't told him about it ahead of time.

Mr. Rankin. Are you a member of any church?

Mrs. Oswald. I believe in God, of course, but I do not go to church—first because I do not have a car. And, secondly, because there is only one Russian Church. Simply that I believe in God in my own heart, and I don't think it is necessary to visit the church.

Mr. Rankin. While your husband—or while you were visiting the Halls, did your husband tell you about getting his job in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I knew about it before he left for Dallas, that he already had work there.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in Dallas about November 3, 1962?

Mrs. Oswald. For him?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. He had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment. But that was in October.

What date I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. And had he obtained an apartment before you went to Dallas to live with him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Cleaned everything up.

34 Mr. Rankin. So that you would have gone to Dallas to live with him some time on or about the date that he rented that apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. After you went to live with him in the apartment at Dallas, did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else?

Mrs. Oswald. Only after this quarrel. Then I stayed with my friends for one week. I had already told you about that.

Mr. Rankin. That is the Meller matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come to stay with her?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but he didn't beat me.

Mr. Rankin. And you didn't tell her that he had beat you, either?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had beaten me, because it had happened.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us any more exact account of where your husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when I did not live with him.

I am asking about which period is it. I don't remember the dates.

Mr. Rankin. The period that he rented the apartment was November 3, so that shortly after that, as I understood your testimony, you were with him, from November 3, or about November 3 on to the 18th. Is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. From November 3 to November 18, 1962? On Elsbeth Street? No, I was there longer.

Mr. Rankin. And do you recall the date that you went to Mrs. Hall's, then?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember. The day when he rented the apartment was a Sunday. But where he lived before that, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. After you went to live with him in the apartment, around November 3, how long did you stay before you went to live with your friend?

Mrs. Oswald. Approximately a month and a half. Perhaps a month. I am not sure.

Mr. Rankin. And when you were at Fort Worth, and he was living in Dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he came for a visit.

Mr. Rankin. And during that time, did he tell you where he was staying?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not tell me his address.

I want to help you, but I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Did you think there was something in your husband's life in America, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he had no friends who had any influence over him. He himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in Russia. But what the reason for that was, I don't know.

Am I giving sufficient answers to your questions?

Mr. Rankin. You are doing fine.

Did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to do with his ideas and political opinions?

Mrs. Oswald. No. The only reasons were personal ones with reference to our personal relationship, not political reasons.

Mr. Rankin. In your story you say that what was involved was some of his crazy ideas and political opinions. Can you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. This was after the case, after the matter of the divorce. I knew that Lee had such political leanings.

Mr. Rankin. With regard to your Russian friends, did you find the time when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us about the time, just approximately when you noticed that difference?

Mrs. Oswald. Soon after arriving in Dallas. Mostly it was De Mohrenschildt35 who visited us. He was the only one who remained our friend. The others sort of removed themselves.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why that was?

Mrs. Oswald. Because they saw that Lee's attitude towards them was not very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see them. They felt that he did not like them.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe what you observed that caused you to think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me that he did not like them, that he did not want them to come to visit.

Mr. Rankin. Did he show any signs of that attitude towards them?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit. Sometimes he would even quarrel with them.

Mr. Rankin. When he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political ideas or what subjects?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on political matters.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any conversation that you can describe to us?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course it is difficult to remember all the conversations. But I know that they had a difference of opinion with reference to political matters. My Russian friends did not approve of everything. I am trying to formulate it more exactly. They did not like the fact that he was an American who had gone to Russia. I think that is all. All that I can remember.

Mr. Rankin. What did they say about——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. Simply I would be busy, and I didn't listen to the conversation.

Mr. Rankin. Can you recall anything else about the conversation or the substance of it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee insisted on it.

Mr. Rankin. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. February 17?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the beginning of February.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the Embassy on February 17?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, "Write."

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your own drafting?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At least that is what I thought.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking and drinking wine, other things like that?

Mrs. Oswald. About drinking wine, no. But he didn't like the fact that I smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. It would have been better if he had smoked and drank.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. Soon after New Years—I think it was in January.

Mr. Rankin. Would that be 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Can you describe the circumstances when you met her?

Mrs. Oswald. We were invited, together with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife, to the home of his friend, an American. And Ruth was acquainted with that American. She was also visiting there. And there were a number of other people there, Americans.

36 Mr. Rankin. Who was this friend? Do you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember his last name. If you would suggest, perhaps I could say.

Mr. Rankin. Was that Mr. Glover?

Mrs. Oswald. What is his first name?

Mr. Rankin. Everett.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I don't know his last name.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk to Mrs. Paine in Russian at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. A little, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. At Neely, on Neely Street.

Mr. Rankin. But not at Elsbeth?

Mrs. Oswald. We moved soon after that acquaintance.

Mr. Rankin. How did your husband treat June? Was he a good father?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes, very good.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your child after you saw this change in his personality?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe to the Commission how your husband treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did?

Mrs. Oswald. He would walk with June, play with her, feed her, change diapers, take photographs—everything that fathers generally do.

Mr. Rankin. He showed considerable affection for her at all times, did he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. If I would punish June, he would punish me.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first meet Michael Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. After I became acquainted with Ruth and she visited me for the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. This was on a Friday. Her husband, Michael, came for us and drove us to their home in Irving.

Mr. Rankin. They were living together at that time, were they?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did Michael Paine know Russian?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. At the time of the Walker incident, do you recall whether your husband had his job or had lost it?

Mrs. Oswald. You had said that this had happened on a Wednesday, and it seems to me that it was on a Friday that he was told that he was discharged. He didn't tell me about it until Monday.

Mr. Rankin. But it was on the preceding Friday that he was discharged, was it not?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not the preceding Friday—the Friday after the incident. That is what he told me.

Mr. Rankin. If he had lost his job before the Walker incident, you didn't know it then?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. On the day of the Walker shooting did he appear to go to work as usual?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he return that day, do you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. Late at night, about 11.

Mr. Rankin. He did not come home for dinner then, before?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he had come home, and then left again.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any difference in his actions when he returned home and had dinner?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he appear to be excited, nervous?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was quite calm. But it seemed to me that inside he was tense.

Mr. Rankin. How could you tell that?

Mrs. Oswald. I could tell by his face. I knew Lee. Sometimes when some thing would happen he wouldn't tell me about it, but I could see it in his eyes, that something had happened.

Mr. Rankin. And you saw it this day, did you?

37 Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did he leave the home after dinner?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was about 7. Perhaps 7:30.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe whether he took any gun with him?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He went downstairs. We lived on the second floor. He said, "Bye-bye."

Mr. Rankin. Did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did not return?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't look to see.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, we have gone our hour.

The Chairman. Yes. I think we will take a 10 minute recess now, so you might refresh yourself.

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the trip to Mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell us all about what you knew.

Did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the Mexican trip?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when was that?

Mrs. Oswald. Before he left. I had remained and he was supposed to leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it.

Mr. Rankin. After he returned to Dallas from his Mexico trip, did he say anything to you then about not telling he had been to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he asked me whether I had told Ruth about it or anyone else, and I told him no, and he said that I should keep quiet about it.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you if you recall seeing that document before.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this is the note that I found in connection with the Walker incident.

Mr. Rankin. That you already testified about?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And there is attached to it a purported English translation.

The Chairman. Do you want that marked and introduced at this time, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, I would like to offer the document.

The Chairman. The document may be marked Exhibit 1 and offered in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on that note, "The Red Cross also will help you."

Mrs. Oswald. I understand that if he were arrested and my money would run out, I would be able to go to the Red Cross for help.

Mr. Rankin. Had you ever discussed that possibility before you found the note?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why he left you the address book?

Mrs. Oswald. Because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers of his and my friends in Russia and here.

Mr. Rankin. And you had seen that book before and knew its contents, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 2 for identification and ask you if you know what that is.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the Walker house in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't see it—at least—taken from this view I can't recognize38 it. I know that the photograph of Walker's home which I saw showed a two-story house. But I don't recognize it from this view. I never saw the house itself at any time in my life.

Mr. Rankin. Does Exhibit 2 for identification appear to be the picture that you described yesterday of the Walker house that you thought your husband had taken and put in his book?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Perhaps this was in his notebook. But I don't remember this particular one.

The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, do you want this in the record?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, she hasn't been able to identify that sufficiently.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. Perhaps there are some other photographs there that I might be able to recognize.

Mr. Rankin. I will present some more to you, and possibly you can then pick out the Walker house.

Mrs. Oswald. I know these photographs.

Mr. Rankin. I now hand you a photograph which has been labeled Exhibit 4 for identification. I ask if you can identify the subject of that photograph, or those photographs.

Mrs. Oswald. All of them?

Mr. Rankin. Whichever ones you can.

Mrs. Oswald. I know one shows Walker's house. Another is a photograph from Leningrad. P-3—this is probably New Orleans. P-4—Leningrad. It is a photograph showing the castle square in Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Can you point out by number the photograph of the Walker house?

Mrs. Oswald. P-2.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether the photographs on Exhibit 4 for identification were part of your husband's photographs?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I offer Exhibit 4 for identification in evidence.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 2, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Dulles. What is being offered—the whole of it, or just P-2?

Mr. Rankin. No, all of it—because she identified the others, too, as a part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. And she pointed out P-2 as being the Walker residence.

When did you first see this photograph of the Walker residence, P-2, in this Exhibit 2?

Mrs. Oswald. After the Walker incident Lee showed it to me.

Mr. Rankin. And how did you know it was a photograph of the Walker residence?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me that.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 3 for identification. I ask you if you can identify the photographs there.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, these are all our photographs. P-1 is Walker's house. P-4 and P-3 is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in Minsk, after a New Year's party, on the morning, on January 1. Before I was married. This was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed overnight in the suburbs. P-5 shows Paul—Pavel Golovachev. He is assembling a television set. He sent us this photograph. He is from Minsk. He worked in the same factory as Lee did.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us which one is the picture of the Walker house on that exhibit?

Mrs. Oswald. P-1.

Mr. Rankin. And when did you first see that exhibit, P-1, of Exhibit 3?

Mrs. Oswald. Together with the other one. P-2 and P-6, I know that they are Lee's photographs, but I don't know what they depict.

Mr. Rankin. Were you shown the P-1 photograph of that Exhibit 3 at the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified regarding the Walker house?

39 Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that that is so. I don't remember exactly. It is hard to remember.

Mr. Rankin. And was that the evening after your husband returned from the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. No. This was on one of the succeeding days.

Mr. Rankin. By succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 3.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 3, and was received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the photograph, the first one that you showed me. I only assumed that was Walker's house.

Mr. Rankin. But the other ones, you do remember those photographs?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, the others I do.

Mr. Rankin. When you say you do not remember the picture of the Walker house, you are referring to the Exhibit 2 for identification that we did not offer in evidence, that I will show you now?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that your husband showed you any other exhibits that were pictures of the Walker house at the time he discussed the Walker shooting with you, beyond those that I have shown you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I shall hand you Exhibit——

Mrs. Oswald. There was some railroad—not just a photograph of a house. Perhaps there were some others. There were several photographs.

Mr. Rankin. I shall hand you Exhibit 4 for identification——

Mrs. Oswald. One photograph with a car.

Mr. Rankin. ——if you can recall the photographs on that exhibit.

Mrs. Oswald. As for P-1 and P-2, I don't know what they are.

P-3, that is Lee in the Army.

P-4, I don't know what that is.

P-5, I did see this photograph with Lee—he showed it to me after the incident.

Mr. Rankin. When your husband showed you the photograph P-5, did he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad. It was in that book. And I guessed, myself, that it had some sort of relationship to the incident.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence photographs P-3 and P-5 on this exhibit.

The Chairman. They may be admitted, and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 4, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, I shall hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if you recognize those two photographs.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. These photographs I know, both of them. They seem to be identical. Walker's house.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first see those exhibits?

Mrs. Oswald. After the incident.

Mr. Rankin. About the same time that you saw the other pictures of the Walker house that you have described?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband tell you why he had these photographs?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't tell me, but I guessed, myself—I concluded myself that these photographs would help him in that business.

Mr. Rankin. That is the business of the shooting at the Walker house?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the two photographs in this exhibit.

The Chairman. They may be admitted and take the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 5, and received in evidence.)

40 Mr. Rankin. Before you told the Commission about the Walker shooting, and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, to the members of the Secret Service and the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell your mother-in-law?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I also told his mother about it.

Mr. Rankin. When did you tell his mother about the incident?

Mrs. Oswald. After Lee was arrested, on Saturday—he was arrested on Friday. I don't remember when I met with his mother—whether it was on the same Friday—yes, Friday evening. I met her at the police station. From there we went to Ruth Paine's where I lived at that time. And she remained overnight, stayed overnight there. I had a photograph of Lee with the rifle, which I gave. At that time I spoke very little English. I explained as best I could about it. And that is why I showed her the photograph. And I told her that Lee had wanted to kill Walker.

Mr. Rankin. Now, turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, did you write to the Russian Embassy about going to Russia, returning to Russia at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was that about the first part of July, that you wrote?

Mrs. Oswald. Probably.

Mr. Rankin. And then did you write a second letter to follow up the first one?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if that is the first letter that you sent to the Embassy. Take your time and look at it.

Mrs. Oswald. This was not the first letter, but it was the first letter written from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Will you examine the photostat that has just been handed to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you wrote to the Embassy about this matter?

Mrs. Oswald. No, this is a reply to my first letter.

Mr. Rankin. Will you examine the one that you now have, and state whether that is the first letter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this was the first. This was only the declaration. But there was a letter in addition to it.

Mr. Rankin. The declaration was a statement that you wished to return to the Soviet Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, about granting me a visa.

Mr. Rankin. And what date does that bear?

Mrs. Oswald. It is dated March 17, 1963.

Mr. Rankin. And did you send it with your letter about the date that it bears?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

I don't know—perhaps a little later, because I was not very anxious to send this.

Mr. Rankin. But you did send it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Do we have the date of the second letter?

Mr. Rankin. I want to go step by step.

Mr. Dulles. Yes, I understand. That is not introduced yet.

Mr. Rankin. It might be confusing if we get them out of order.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this is the first letter.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the photostatic document that you have just referred to as being the first letter, does it bear a date?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. Oswald. It says there the 17th of February.

Mr. Rankin. And do you know that that letter had attached to it your declaration that you just referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it seems to me. Perhaps it was attached to the next letter. I am not sure.

41 Mr. Rankin. This letter of February 17 that you referred to as the first letter is in your handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you examine the translation into English that is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct translation?

Mrs. Oswald. I can't do that, because——

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell her whether it is a correct translation?

Mr. Krimer. If I may translate it from the English, she could check it.

Mr. Rankin. Would you kindly do that?

Mrs. Oswald. That is a quite correct translation. I didn't want to, but I had to compose some such letters.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in Russian as Exhibit 6.

The Chairman. Together with the translation that is attached to it?

Mr. Rankin. Together with the translation that is attached to it as Exhibit 7.

The Chairman. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I hand you again the declaration, Exhibit 8, and ask you if that accompanied the first letter, Exhibit 6, that you have referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter or the second letter with which I had enclosed some photographs and filled out questionnaires.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if that is the second letter that you have just referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. No, this was perhaps the third. Perhaps I could help you, if you would show me all the letters, I would show you the sequence.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 9, dated March 8, 1963, and ask you if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the declaration.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a reply from the Embassy, a reply to my first letter.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, may we have a short recess to get the original exhibits that we have prepared, and I think we can expedite our hearing.

The Chairman. Very well. We will have a short recess.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission will come to order. We will proceed.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will see if we have these in proper order now.

I will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and the accompanying papers that I shall now call Exhibit 8 to replace the references to Exhibit 8 and 9 that we made in prior testimony, and ask you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the Embassy.

Mrs. Oswald. I sent this after I received an answer from the Embassy, an answer to my first letter. This is one and the same. Two separate photostats of the same declaration. All of these documents were attached to my second letter after the answer to my first.

Mr. Rankin. I call your attention to Exhibit 9, and ask you if that is the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this is the answer to that letter.

Mr. Rankin. Will you compare the translation?

Mrs. Oswald. The only thing is that the address and the telephone number of the Embassy are not shown in the Russian original. They are in the translation.

Mr. Rankin. Otherwise the translation is correct, is it?

Mrs. Oswald. Otherwise, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute the Exhibit No. 8 for what I have called 9, as the reply of the Embassy, so that we won't be confused about the order of these.

The Chairman. The correction may be made.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the original and the translation of Exhibit 8, except for the address of the Embassy, which was not on the original.

The Chairman. It may be admitted, and take the next number.

42 (The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 8, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, as I understand, what I will call Exhibit 9 now, to correct the order in which these letters were sent to the Embassy, was your response to the letter of the Embassy dated March 8, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Will you compare the translation with the interpreter and advise us if it is correct?

Mr. Krimer. It says, "Application" in the translation; the Russian word is "Declaration".

Mr. Rankin. Will you note that correction, Mr. Krimer, please?

Mr. Krimer. In pencil?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Krimer. Crossing out the word "application".

Mrs. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Krimer. Sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a translator note on here which states that since printed questions are given both in Russian and English translation, only the answer portion of the document is being translated.

Mrs. Oswald. That is correct.

Mr. Rankin. You have now examined Exhibit 9 and the translation into English from that exhibit where it was in Russian and compared them with the interpreter, have you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, correct.

Mr. Rankin. Do you find the translation is correct?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 9, being the Russian communications, and the English translations.

The Chairman. The documents may be admitted with the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 9, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the Embassy of March 8, which is known as Commission's Exhibit 8, that you were told that the time of processing would take 5 to 6 months?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And about when did you do that?

Mrs. Oswald. What is the date of that letter?

Mr. Rankin. March 8.

Mrs. Oswald. At that time we did not discuss it. We discussed it in New Orleans. Or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order, I would be able to leave before the birth of my second child.

Mr. Rankin. And did you discuss that idea with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And you think that you discussed it with him while you were at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of March 8 from the Embassy, Commission's Exhibit 8, that you furnish one or two letters from relatives residing in the Soviet Union who were inviting you to live with them?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but I didn't have any such letters and I did not enclose any.

Mr. Rankin. You never did send such letters to the Embassy, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. After you sent Exhibit 9 to the Embassy, did you have further correspondence with them?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 10, a letter purporting to be from the Embassy dated April 18, and ask you if you recall that.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I remember that.

Mr. Rankin. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian?

43 Mrs. Oswald. Yes, the translation is correct.

Mr. Rankin. We offer the exhibit in evidence, together with the translation.

The Chairman. It may be admitted with the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 10, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Did you note that the Embassy invited you to come and visit them personally?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever do that?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you a letter purporting to be from the Embassy, dated June 4, marked Exhibit 11, and ask you if you recall receiving that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This is a second request to visit the Embassy.

Mr. Rankin. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian?

Mrs. Oswald. Correct.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 11, being the Russian letter from the Embassy together with the English translation.

The Chairman. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 11, and received in evidence.)

The Chairman. We will now recess for lunch.

The Commission will reconvene at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. The Commission will convene.

Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation.

Mrs. Oswald. The translation is correct.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter, and the English translation.

The Chairman. The documents are admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you have just examined in Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. Is that No. 12?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it is.

Mr. Rankin. And is it in your handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you find any date on the letter? I didn't.

Mrs. Oswald. I probably didn't date it. No. I wrote this from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell the Commission the approximate date you wrote it?

Mrs. Oswald. What was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11—Exhibit No. 11?

Mr. Rankin. June 4, 1963.

Mrs. Oswald. This was probably in July, but I don't know the date.

Mr. Rankin. Do you notice there was a "P.S." on Exhibit 12?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Referring to an application by your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And was an application for your husband for a visa included or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it?

44 Mrs. Oswald. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know whether it was there or not.

Mr. Rankin. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a letter that you had written?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether his application was included because he handled the mailing of it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 13 and ask you if you recall that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my presence. But it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she will know the contents.

Mrs. Oswald. Why "separately"—the word "separately" here is underlined.

Mr. Rankin. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it before, I guess you cannot help us.

Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his visa be handled separately from yours?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I didn't know this. Because I hadn't seen this letter.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 13.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that you are referring to—that is the word that you asked about?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Was that underlined by Lee?

Mr. Rankin. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining it.

Mrs. Oswald. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do consider it separately.

Mr. Rankin. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit 14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you please compare the translation in English?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, the translation is all right.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and the English translation.

The Chairman. It may be admitted under that number.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange for you and your daughter to go back?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps. Because he planned to go to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that in time he would have wanted to come and see me.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember having seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that exhibit?

Mrs. Oswald. The signature is his, yes. I would like to have it translated.

Mr. Rankin. Would you translate it for her, please, Mr. Krimer?

Mrs. Oswald. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he did want to go to the Soviet Union—but now I am lost, I don't know. Because—45perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business, perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is not too polite, in my opinion.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 15.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a little clearer what it is all about—if you could have a moment or two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the examination.

Mrs. Oswald. This was typed on the typewriter belonging to Ruth.

Mr. Rankin. You can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I don't know what he was typing.

Mr. Rankin. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring to, when you say Ruth?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that?

Mrs. Oswald. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on the envelope—whether it is November 2 or November 12?

Mrs. Oswald. November 12.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 16.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Then this must be 12.

Mr. Rankin. That is the only way you can determine it, is it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this letter, Exhibit 15?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Where were you when he told you about it?

Mrs. Oswald. In the home of Mrs. Paine, in my room.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband present when he told you about it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just what he said about the trip at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I don't remember any more about it.

Mr. Rankin. At that time——

Mrs. Oswald. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that I did not want to, and he said, "Okay."

Mr. Rankin. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you about the trip to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to make secrets of things.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this letter of November 8, Exhibit 15?

46 Mrs. Oswald. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he got that name from.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about the trip?

Mrs. Oswald. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, welcomed him there.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless he used a real name, so he returned to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't tell me about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about going to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. He never told you anything of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas, and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his apartment—Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And then when he moved, he left me another phone number.

And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned him and asked for him by name—rather, Ruth telephoned him and it turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was unknown at that number.

Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book, but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?"

He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel. I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to me why he was so secretive all the time.

Mr. Rankin. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an assumed name at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been in Russia and that he had been questioned.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing. And also he did not want the FBI to know where he lived.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he did not want the FBI to know where he lived?

Mrs. Oswald. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his employment.

Mr. Rankin. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know, that is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that this would help.

Mr. Rankin. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't understand the question.

Mr. Rankin. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not?

Mrs. Oswald. Why hadn't he planned that?

Mr. Rankin. That is what I am trying to find out from you.

Did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the Soviet Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. This is not the truth. He did want to contact the embassy.

47 Mr. Rankin. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to visit the Soviet Embassy, did he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia and live and sometimes not. He did not know, himself. He was very changeable.

Mr. Rankin. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned, and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete our business."

Now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby would be able to get to Cuba.

Is this understandable? Does this clarify the matter or not?

Mr. Rankin. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all.

Mrs. Oswald. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba—that the only legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba.

I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is clear to you or not.

Mr. Rankin. I appreciate, Mrs. Oswald, your interpretation of it.

I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee wanted to get to Cuba by any means.

Mr. Rankin. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that, I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and, therefore, was unprepared.

Now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving?

It is not that I am asking. It seems to me that this is not a normal thing.

Mr. Rankin. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he got back?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the Embassy in Washington.

Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved thoughts of Lee.

I think that he was confused himself, and I certainly am.

Mr. Rankin. Is that all that you can recall that was said about that matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for that purpose.

Mr. Rankin. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know what he meant by that?

48 Mrs. Oswald. What regulations—what are the regulations?

Mr. Rankin. I am trying to find out from you.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about that. I don't know what happened.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, or that the Cuban Embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned from his trip and told you about what happened there?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has since been replaced."

Do you know whom he was referring to?

Mrs. Oswald. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't understand anything, either.

Mr. Rankin. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal Bureau of Investigation is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside in that state."

Do you know why he would say anything like that to the Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. Because he was crazy.

He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary of any—he was not a secretary of any organization.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is telling about here?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"—do you know whether there was such a visit by that man?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And was he referring to the man that you know as James P. Hosty?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone number, but it seems to me that his name was different.

Mr. Rankin. After you received the telephone number, what did you do with it?

Mrs. Oswald. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn, passed it on to Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything with it?

Mrs. Oswald. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he did with it.

Mr. Rankin. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.

Mr. Rankin. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it down?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty "warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me."

Do you remember anything about anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this is another agent, not the one who visited us.

But I don't know whether Lee had talked to him or not.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't know that.

Mr. Rankin. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also 'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United States under FBI protection."

49 Did you ever hear of anything like that before?

Mrs. Oswald. I had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time.

The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under their protection.

Mr. Rankin. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like that to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one said anything like that.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an agent for that government, or any of its agencies?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI."

Do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a protest. This was simply a request.

Mr. Rankin. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one asked you that, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No one ever asked me.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that you have not already told us?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this letter I have told you.

The Chairman. I think we will take a short recess now, about 10 minutes.

Mrs. Oswald. I would like to help you, but I simply don't know, I cannot.

(Brief recess)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course my husband.

Mr. Rankin. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to return to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I felt very lonely—since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this would be the best way.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the Spanish language?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps five words.

Mr. Rankin. Have you given it any study?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never did.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever study Spanish that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would sit down with the textbook and look at it.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. May I take it out?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

50 Mrs. Oswald. June seems to have played with it. This was Lee's study of Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words.

Mr. Rankin. Does that Exhibit 17 have any of your husband's handwriting on it?

Mrs. Oswald. Some of it is my handwriting and some of it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. About when did he start?

Mrs. Oswald. In August, in New Orleans, 1963.

Mr. Rankin. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at that time or thereafter?

Mrs. Oswald. No, this was in September.

Mr. Rankin. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or after that date?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Do you want to know whether this was earlier than August or later?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. No, not earlier. This was in September, not in August.

Mr. Rankin. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit 17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 17.

The Chairman. It may be marked with the next number and received in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material evidence—the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it.

Mr. Rankin. Returning to the time that your husband came back from Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought back with him?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag with a zipper, blue in color.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he brought back with him from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you at the Paines?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not the whole weekend. When he returned he stayed overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or Friday evening. And he remained until Monday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more because he had run into, as he himself said—into bureaucracy and red tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us how he treated you better?

Mrs. Oswald. He helped me more—although he always did help. But he was more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and he was in somewhat an elated mood.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Was it a small or a large amount or do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large amount for you.

51 Mr. Rankin. Well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had?

Mrs. Oswald. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring.

Mr. Rankin. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't know the address. I didn't ask, because I didn't need it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. In what sense do you mean "lived with"?

Mr. Rankin. I mean roomed in her home.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. That was a place on Marsallis Street?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about it.

Mr. Rankin. How did he return from Irving to Dallas at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him home. By bus.

Mr. Rankin. You said before that you learned about the depository job at some neighbor's home, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. In whose home was that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. Perhaps later I will.

Mr. Rankin. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that was a guest there?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps you know the name.

Mr. Rankin. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a number of names, but not by the location.

Mrs. Oswald. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there.

Mr. Rankin. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Was that Mrs. Randle?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention it.

Mr. Rankin. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know such people.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I don't think he was 18 yet.

Mr. Rankin. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the neighbor's house?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring Lee and take him back with him to Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he take him, ordinarily?

Mrs. Oswald. 8 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Rankin. And did he take him on Monday morning?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Usually each week he would take him on Monday morning?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee came for a weekend, yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then when did he bring him back from Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. At 5:30 on Friday.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever come in the middle of the week?

Mrs. Oswald. No, only during the last week when all of this happened with reference to the assassination of the President—he came on a Thursday.

52 Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband getting this job at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor and mentioned that Lee was out of work.

Mr. Rankin. Was it Mrs. Paine that found out about the job, then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that Lee come there on the following day.

Mr. Rankin. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the following day?

Mrs. Oswald. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them, and he telephoned that he had already received the job.

Mr. Rankin. Did he telephone to you or to Mrs. Paine about getting the job?

Mrs. Oswald. He telephoned me. But, of course, he thanked Ruth.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three days before he got the job and started, or more than that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he started on the day following being accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th of October.

Mr. Rankin. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he call you and give you the number there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious name?

Mrs. Oswald. What do you mean where he was? From where he telephoned?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, or the number that he gave you—that is the rooming house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us you called there.

Mrs. Oswald. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned him.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second place, when you did call him?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you?

Mrs. Oswald. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say that. I read that in the paper.

Mr. Rankin. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave you when you called and he answered the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one told me anything. I didn't know under what name he lived there.

Mr. Rankin. But you found out that he was not living under his own name, is that what you meant before?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. After he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. Oswald. It was on Friday, October 18. It was his birthday.

He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed overnight from Monday until Tuesday.

Mr. Rankin. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine the rifle in the garage at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket?

Mrs. Oswald. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.

Mr. Rankin. When was that?

Mrs. Oswald. About a week after I came from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you?

53 Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock.

Mr. Rankin. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he come home Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. Oswald. On a Friday.

Mr. Rankin. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October, did he tell you he was going to change his room?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember what your husband's pay was at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that it was also $1.25.

Mr. Rankin. About how much a month did it run?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me it was $210 to $230.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the hours that he worked?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems that—it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Mr. Rankin. And did he work the weekend or any overtime?

Mrs. Oswald. No. It does happen in that depository that they work overtime. But he did not have to work any.

Mr. Rankin. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at Irving, did he call you from time to time?

Mrs. Oswald. Daily, twice.

Mr. Rankin. Did he leave his telephone number in Dallas with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

I don't have it, it was in Paine's notebook.

Mr. Rankin. Did he speak to you in Russian when he called you on the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke Russian—then he would try to speak in English.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you from Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a special celebration for your husband's birthday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When was that?

Mrs. Oswald. On October 18th.

Mr. Rankin. Who was there?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth and her children, I, Lee, and Paine's husband, Michael.

Mr. Rankin. Did Wesley Frazier bring your husband home at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I now remember.

Mr. Rankin. Did he bring him home that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember.

It seems to me, yes. It is hard to remember now which weekend was which.

Mr. Rankin. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been going to the garage and practicing with his rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever she was not at home, he tried to spend as much time as he could with me—he would watch television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our things that were there.

Mr. Rankin. And you don't know when he went there what he might have done with the rifle? Is that what you mean?

54 Mrs. Oswald. At least I didn't notice anything.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you have described your husband's——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the garage.

Mr. Rankin. You have described your husband's practicing on the back porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.

Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back—during those times?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.

But I did hear the noise from it from time to time—not often.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for your baby?

Mrs. Oswald. Very well.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband go with you at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. He wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way.

Mr. Rankin. After the baby was born, did he come and see you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything to you about the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. Every father talks a lot.

Mr. Rankin. Did he talk about the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. About me and the child—he was very happy. He even had tears in his eyes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he call you from Irving when you were in the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was doing.

Mr. Rankin. And those conversations would be reported to you by the nurse, then?

Mrs. Oswald. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband had called.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your husband return to Irving that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come.

This was one occasion.

The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel—that incident with the fictitious name.

No, I am confused.

It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere.

Mr. Rankin. You are asking me the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter?

Mrs. Oswald. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each time when he did come and when did not.

Mr. Rankin. Now, if it was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the birthday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not come home that weekend.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy Roberts?

55 Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with Michael Paine in October of 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

It seems to me—I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It seems to me that this was the birthday—it was after dinner. They talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got together and went to some kind of a meeting.

Mr. Rankin. Was that a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit.

Mr. Rankin. Was that in the weekend of October 25th?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the week after that, the following Friday.

Mr. Rankin. Now, on October 26th, Saturday, was your husband with you all day?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. All day. Whenever he came, he never went anywhere else.

Mr. Rankin. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you if there was any time that he could have left to have that done.

Mrs. Oswald. How is it about the telescope? He always had the telescope. Were there two?

Mr. Rankin. We are trying to find out.

Someone says that they mounted a sight.

Mrs. Oswald. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we want to check with you.

When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems—it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no—no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.

Mr. Rankin. But he did not go in by bus that day?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day.

Mr. Rankin. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October, that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine in your presence or with you.

Do you recall one on October 29th?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted—she talked to them.

Mr. Rankin. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And would she at the same time answer things in English, too, herself?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. So, in effect, the FBI was——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me—she loves to talk.

Mr. Rankin. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to some extent, is that right?

56 Mrs. Oswald. Yes. They asked her about Lee, as far as I know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs. Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at that time, other than just a greeting.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs. Paine about you or your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to understand. But she told me that in general terms.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the November 1 interview when that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify that for us, and tell us what it is.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's notebook.

Mr. Rankin. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18?

Mrs. Oswald. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address in this notebook.

This is mine.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us—is it a long notation by you?

Mrs. Oswald. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in Minsk while I went on vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. The majority, mostly.

Mr. Rankin. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is noted down by others.

Mr. Rankin. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of notes?

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Russia.

Mr. Rankin. He started it in Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And there are a number of notations that were made after you returned to this country, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18.

The Chairman. It may be admitted with that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up in the dictionary himself and translated it.

Mr. Rankin. I would like to hand this back to you and call your attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is.

I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to Agent Hosty.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number.

Mr. Rankin. And the telephone number?

57 The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your husband's——

Mrs. Oswald. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, license number, and probably the address.

Mr. Rankin. Are all in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook, Exhibit 18?

Mrs. Oswald. After the first visit.

Mr. Rankin. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, November 1, with the FBI agent?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend, I told him about it.

By the way, on that day he was due to arrive.

Mr. Rankin. That is on November 1?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30—comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait.

Mr. Rankin. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of the other man beside Agent Hosty?

Mrs. Oswald. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name and the date.

Mr. Rankin. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the FBI agent and the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that they had come, that they were interested in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset.

He said that he would telephone them—I don't know whether he called or not—or that he would visit them.

Mr. Rankin. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember anything else that happened in the interview that you could tell the Commission at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was disturbing to us.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything else?

Mrs. Oswald. There was more, but I don't remember now.

Mr. Rankin. Now, during this period of time——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked whether Lee was doing that here.

Mr. Rankin. Did you answer that question?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews or conversations with the FBI during this period?

Mrs. Oswald. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas after he got his job?

58 Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what he was doing?

Mrs. Oswald. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk in the park.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say in answer to that?

Mrs. Oswald. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my requests.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week?

Mrs. Oswald. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said that that was because he wanted to visit another place—supposedly there was another job open, more interesting work.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was more interesting?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a newspaper, and that it was connected—that it was related to photography. And he went there in the morning and then—on a Saturday—and then came to us, still during the morning.

Mr. Rankin. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of that day?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, before noon.

It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the 8th—elections—were there elections on that day?

Mr. Rankin. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day?

Mrs. Oswald. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that Saturday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place?

Mrs. Oswald. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and buy a few things.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr. Hutchison?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever shop there with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. We never went just Lee and I.

Mr. Rankin. Did the three of you—Mrs. Paine and you and your husband go together to shop?

Mrs. Oswald. And her children.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market?

Mrs. Oswald. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he received unemployment compensation.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this market?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't have such a check.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that size at this market?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33.

Mr. Rankin. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a check?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving?

Mr. Rankin. It is in Irving.

Mrs. Oswald. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have been with him.

The Chairman. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

59

Wednesday, February 5, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English language to some extent?

Mrs. Oswald. I have never studied it, but simple language I do understand.

Mr. Rankin. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern Methodist University. Is there anything to that?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by anyone?

Mrs. Oswald. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would try to translate them into English.

Mr. Rankin. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for you, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I have not been in contact with any Russians.

Mr. Rankin. And there were considerable periods during the time you have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI agent or translator were present, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. So have you been able to learn a little more English while you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that experience?

Mrs. Oswald. Only a little, I think.

At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who do not speak Russian.

Mr. Rankin. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take it.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any French?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language.

Mr. Rankin. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service people were there, too, were they not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they helped me a great deal.

Mr. Rankin. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did they treat you properly?

Mrs. Oswald. Excellently—very well.

Mr. Rankin. Did you object to their being around and looking out for you as they did?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been with them?

Mrs. Oswald. Better than I—could have been expected.

Mr. Rankin. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you?

Mrs. Oswald. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them.

Mr. Rankin. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for the Secret Service60 people to be there with you and that you liked that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that satisfactory to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Was he speaking for you when he said that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very badly and stopped me from doing something.

I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later translated into English that all of this was not the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not satisfactory to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to.

Mr. Rankin. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during that time or from that time up to the present—I withdraw that.

Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they couldn't do so simply because I did not want to.

Mr. Rankin. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to someone during that period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Everything depended only on me.

Mr. Rankin. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see someone, you were always able to do that, were you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend.

Mr. Rankin. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you wanted to, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. Oswald. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for herself, rather than for me.

Mr. Rankin. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What about the newspaper and television and radio people? Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they have tried.

Mr. Rankin. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you?

Mrs. Oswald. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for their attention towards me.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe to us your relationship with your mother-in-law now?

Mrs. Oswald. After all of this happened I met with her at the police station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her.

I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I do not want her to cripple them.

Mr. Rankin. Has she tried to see you since the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, all the time.

Mr. Rankin. And have you seen her since that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I visited61 there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me.

Mr. Rankin. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have you seen her since the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe any difference in her attitude towards you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe that difference that you observed?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn.

Mr. Rankin. The Six Flags?

Mrs. Oswald. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met with her every day I could see—I was able to see the change. At least if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me.

There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one understood her.

Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with her and to listen to scandals every day.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No, she did not accuse me of anything.

Mr. Rankin. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved?

Mrs. Oswald. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like her.

Mr. Rankin. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that that would get across and I would understand.

Mr. Rankin. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the press.

The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed her children to look this way and look that way. And the first photographs that appeared were of me with her children.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red Cross before that date?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the note?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help, since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this organization.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't.

Mr. Rankin. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an embassy—it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your husband was referring to?

Mrs. Oswald. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy.

Mr. Rankin. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think that you might have told. You have described that.

62 Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target.

Mr. Rankin. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known?

Mr. Rankin. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not have confided such things.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the money to repay that amount?

Mrs. Oswald. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven months we were paying off this debt.

Mr. Rankin. Some of the payments were rather large during that period. Do you remember that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And no one will believe it—it may appear strange. But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how we existed.

Mr. Rankin. Did you handle the finances——

Mrs. Oswald. Of course we were economizing.

No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together.

Mr. Rankin. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy what you needed?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then did he give you any funds separately from that, for you to spend alone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he would give it to me, but I would not take it.

Mr. Rankin. How much were those amounts?

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me, I want to add something.

You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a month—I forgot. Excuse me—I will do it today.

For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I am not sick.

Mr. Rankin. Did you buy clothing for yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for me. But in America this is no problem.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2, clothes for an entire season.

Mr. Rankin. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the buying of that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Returning to the——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to us by friends who had children. But I didn't like them and I bought some.

Mr. Rankin. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall that that was a holiday?

Mrs. Oswald. November 11?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were elections.

Mr. Rankin. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a Monday—refreshing your memory in that regard.

Do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I remember that he remained at the Paine's.

63 Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what he did during that day?

Mrs. Oswald. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television.

Mr. Rankin. Was he doing any reading at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was typing. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. And you don't know what he was typing?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me it was the envelope——

Mr. Rankin. Which you have identified?

Mrs. Oswald. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and Kostin, it was that envelope.

Mr. Rankin. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings it back.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas to Irving at any time during that week?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend.

Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and didn't come.

Mr. Rankin. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was at work. He couldn't have been there.

Mr. Rankin. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend your husband stayed in Dallas—that is the 15th through the 17th of November. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is, he didn't come that weekend.

But on the 13th he was not in Irving.

Mr. Rankin. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to refresh your memory again.

Mrs. Oswald. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't come—that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a quarrel over the fictitious name.

By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had wanted to come, he had telephoned.

Mr. Rankin. What did you tell him about not coming?

Mrs. Oswald. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I won't."

Mr. Rankin. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the fictitious name?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I hung up and would not talk to him.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell him why you were so angry?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now this fictitious name."

I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people were to find out that he had been in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say when you said that?

Mrs. Oswald. That I didn't understand anything.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it, and when the64 landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to him then?

Mrs. Oswald. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from some country other than Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to him about that?

Mrs. Oswald. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not be afraid or ashamed of it.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say in response to that?

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing.

Mr. Rankin. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name Hidell?

Mrs. Oswald. Where?

Mr. Rankin. When you called him that time.

Mrs. Oswald. Where?

Mr. Rankin. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a fictitious name given.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which.

Mr. Rankin. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first learn that he used such a name?

Mrs. Oswald. In New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. How did you learn that?

Mrs. Oswald. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to him about it at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it would be discovered anyhow.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into Dallas, that trip, for that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume that. I cannot know it.

Mr. Rankin. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of any other time your husband was using an assumed name?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no more.

Mr. Rankin. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else?

Mrs. Oswald. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in connection with his activity with the non-existing organization.

Mr. Rankin. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you knew, while you were there?

Mrs. Oswald. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell.

Mr. Rankin. How did you discover it, then?

Mrs. Oswald. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.

Mr. Rankin. Was that after the arrest?

65 Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the arrest or after.

Mr. Rankin. But it was in regard to some interview for radio transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No—he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell.

Mr. Rankin. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time.

Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?

Mrs. Oswald. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time.

Yes—twice he did clean it.

Mr. Rankin. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.

Mr. Rankin. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?

Mrs. Oswald. During darkness.

Mr. Rankin. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband call you at all by telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on Sunday, and he was not there.

Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he was known by another name.

On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on Thursday.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as his last name?

Mrs. Oswald. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before.

Mr. Rankin. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And the assassination was on the 22d.

Mrs. Oswald. This is very hard to forget.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on Thursday?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. Oswald. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he was very upset.

Mr. Rankin. Were you upset with him?

Mrs. Oswald. I was angry, of course. He was not angry—he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street.

Mr. Rankin. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?

Mrs. Oswald. By not talking to him.

Mr. Rankin. And how did he show that he was upset?

Mrs. Oswald. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.

On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that66 he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow—that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.

He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said he would buy me a washing machine.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself—that I would manage.

Mr. Rankin. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.

In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't get up—as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was quite usual.

And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on later—that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee was in the garage.

But I didn't see it.

Mr. Rankin. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in the garage, what time of the day?

Mrs. Oswald. She thought that it was during the evening, because the light remained on until morning.

Mr. Rankin. Why did you stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry with him?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes and be otherwise busy with the household—take a bath.

Mr. Rankin. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. All right. We can take a recess now.

We will recess now for 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit?

Mrs. Oswald. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course. I was tired of it.

Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't wait to find out what else would he think of.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss that with your husband at all?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no67 reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that he was more important.

Mr. Rankin. And what did he say?

Mrs. Oswald. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in two or three days.

Mr. Rankin. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe.

Mr. Rankin. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind?

Mrs. Oswald. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had come that this became more significant for her.

Mr. Rankin. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the light?

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At least that is what she said to me. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went to bed at 9 o'clock?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her room and then Lee went. He was there after her.

Mr. Rankin. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and 10? Was that what you thought?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the morning and turned on the light.

Mr. Rankin. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?

Mrs. Oswald. I said that I saw—for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.

But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the garage where the rifle was located?

Mrs. Oswald. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the front part, the left.

Mr. Rankin. By the left you mean left of the door?

Mrs. Oswald. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on the floor.

It was always in the same place.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. Next to it there were some—next to the rifle there were some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play.

Mr. Rankin. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just left there at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. It always had the appearance of having something inside of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle was taken. I only68 assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.

Mr. Rankin. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see you Thursday was to make up?

Mrs. Oswald. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with me, and the other to take the rifle. This is—this, of course, is not irreconcilable.

Mr. Rankin. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you learned since. Is that it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you and your husband getting along quite well?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he seem to like his job at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because it was not dirty work.

Mr. Rankin. Had he talked about getting any other job?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked this work relatively speaking—he liked it. But, of course, he wanted to get something better.

Mr. Rankin. Did you like the photographic work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his work in the newspaper he would always point it out.

Mr. Rankin. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot". Do you know what he meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he didn't like her. He told me that he detested her—a tall and stupid woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine was coming between him and you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she thought. But she didn't say anything bad.

Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything.

Mr. Rankin. I have understood from your testimony that you did not really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And later he talked about not only you and your child going, but also his going with you, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what caused him to make that change?

Mrs. Oswald. At one time—I don't remember whether he was working at that time or not—he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said, "It would be better if I go with you."

Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course, when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't start to question him about why.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him alone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all staying in this country and getting along together?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went.

Mr. Rankin. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?

69 Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't have any.

Mr. Rankin. He didn't say anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he didn't come—he was in jail.

Mr. Rankin. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened. This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, just wanted to make up.

Mr. Rankin. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite disturbed and you were still angry, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face.

Mr. Rankin. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. Oswald. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when he went to bed he was very upset.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination the next day?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I didn't think about it. Now I think so.

Mr. Rankin. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did you ask him why?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for the weekend.

Mr. Rankin. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans to do anything?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the Paines?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it.

Mr. Rankin. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was in the wallet?

Mrs. Oswald. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June—and for the children.

This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first.

Mr. Rankin. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put the rest in the wallet.

I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was?

Mrs. Oswald. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke.

Mr. Rankin. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in the evening meal?

Mrs. Oswald. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert.

Mr. Rankin. Where would he have that?

70 Mrs. Oswald. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive.

The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal?

Mrs. Oswald. About a dollar, $1.30.

Mr. Rankin. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily?

Mrs. Oswald. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is all.

Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron in the hearing room. He also knows Russian.

On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort Worth area?

Mrs. Oswald. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see him. I asked him how this could be done.

But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any further on that subject.

Mr. Rankin. Had there ever been——

Mrs. Oswald. This was also somewhat unusual—his lack of desire to talk about that subject any further.

Mr. Rankin. Can you explain that to us?

Mrs. Oswald. I think about it more now.

At that time, I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. Rankin. How did you think it was unusual? Could you explain that?

Mrs. Oswald. The fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. He merely gave me—said something as an answer, and did not have any further comments.

Mr. Rankin. Do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of that kind and show considerable interest?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and where this would take place.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I merely shrugged my shoulders.

Mr. Rankin. Now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion between you concerning the proposed trip of President Kennedy to Texas?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. While you were in New Orleans, was there any discussion or reference to President Kennedy's proposed trip to Texas?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband make any comments about President Kennedy on that evening, of the 21st?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Had your husband at any time that you can recall said anything against President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember any—ever having said that. I don't know. He never told me that.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything good about President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Usually he would translate magazine articles. They were generally good. And he did not say that this contradicted his opinion. I just remembered that he talked about Kennedy's father, who made his fortune by a not very—in a not very good manner. Disposing of such funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for themselves.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about President Kennedy's father making his fortune?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he had speculated in wine. I don't know to what extent that is true.

Mr. Rankin. When he read these articles to you, did he comment favorably upon President Kennedy?

71 Mrs. Oswald. I have already said that he would translate articles which were good, but he would not comment on them.

Mr. Rankin. Can you recall——

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. At least when I found out that Lee had shot at the President, for me this was surprising. And I didn't believe it. I didn't believe for a long time that Lee had done that. That he had wanted to kill Kennedy—because perhaps Walker was there again, perhaps he wanted to kill him.

Mr. Rankin. Why did you not believe this?

Mrs. Oswald. Because I had never heard anything bad about Kennedy from Lee. And he never had anything against him.

Mr. Rankin. But you also say that he never said anything about him.

Mrs. Oswald. He read articles which were favorable.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say he approved of those articles?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't say anything. Perhaps he did reach his own conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them.

Mr. Rankin. So apparently he didn't indicate any approval or disapproval as far as he was concerned, of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is correct. The President is the President. In my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. At least he never showed me that. He never indicated that he didn't want that President.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe that his acts on November 21st the evening before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening before the Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. Absolutely nothing in common.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything at all that would indicate he was contemplating the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening with you?

Mrs. Oswald. He was looking at TV by himself. I was busy in the kitchen. At one time when we were—when I was together with him they showed some sort of war films, from World War II. And he watched them with interest.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall films that he saw called "Suddenly," and "We were Strangers" that involved assassinations?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the names of these films. If you would remind me of the contents, perhaps I would know.

Mr. Rankin. Well, "Suddenly," was about the assassination of a president, and the other was about the assassination of a Cuban dictator.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, Lee saw those films.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that he had seen them?

Mrs. Oswald. I was with him when he watched them.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall about when this was with reference to the date of the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems that this was before Rachel's birth.

Mr. Rankin. Weeks or months? Can you recall that?

Mrs. Oswald. Several days. Some five days.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. One film about the assassination of the president in Cuba, which I had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual situation which existed in Cuba, meaning the revolution in Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. Did either of you comment on either film being like the attempt on Walker's life?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I didn't watch the other film.

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said by your husband about how easy an assassination could be committed like that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I only know that he watched the film with interest, but I didn't like it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything else he said about either of these films?

72 Mrs. Oswald. Nothing else. He didn't tell me anything else. He talked to Ruth a few words. Perhaps she knows more.

Mr. Rankin. By Ruth, you mean Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. They spoke in English.

Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And did Mrs. Paine tell you what he said to her at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall your husband saying at any time after he saw the film about the Cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned way of assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything being said by your husband at any time about Governor Connally?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, while we were still in Russia, and Connally at that time was Secretary of the Navy, Lee wrote him a letter in which he asked Connally to help him obtain a good character reference because at the end of his Army service he had a good characteristic—honorable discharge—but that it had been changed after it became known he had gone to Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Had it been changed to undesirable discharge, as you understand it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Then we received a letter from Connally in which he said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities. That was all in Russia.

But here it seems he had written again to that organization with a request to review. But he said from time to time that these are bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when he wrote again?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Was that letter written from New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I only know about the fact, but when and how, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a dislike for Governor Connally?

Mrs. Oswald. Here he didn't say anything.

But while we were in Russia he spoke well of him. It seems to me that Connally was running for Governor and Lee said that when he would return to the United States he would vote for him.

Mr. Rankin. That is all that you remember that he said about Governor Connally then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. With regard to the Walker incident, you said that your husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. Did you notice anything of that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he left?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen to see whether he had had breakfast or not—whether he had already left for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there.

And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some instant coffee.

But probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning.

Mr. Rankin. Then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did he get up and go without speaking to you?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me to take as much money as I needed and to buy everything, and said goodbye, and that is all.

After the police had already come, I noticed that Lee had left his wedding ring.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't observe that that morning when your husband had left, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

73 Mr. Rankin. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that morning?

Mrs. Oswald. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight—I don't know. I have now forgotten.

Mr. Rankin. What time was he due for work?

Mrs. Oswald. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already gone.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that morning?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the Paine's residence or garage?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see a bag at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for lunch? Do you know?

Mrs. Oswald. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know whether he would go home or not.

Mr. Rankin. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before?

Mrs. Oswald. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work—he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him.

I don't know now. He would take it off at work.

Mr. Rankin. Then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on November 22nd?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small package.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some container?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up on November 22d?

Mrs. Oswald. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her pajamas and watching television with me.

Mr. Rankin. Before the assassination, did you ever see your husband examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see him looking at a map of Dallas like he did in connection with the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did you learn of the shooting of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. I was watching television, and Ruth by that time was already with me, and she said someone had shot at the President.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. It was hard for me to say anything. We both turned pale. I went to my room and cried.

Mr. Rankin. Did you think immediately that your husband might have been involved?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

74 Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about the possibility of your husband being involved?

Mrs. Oswald. No, but she only said that "By the way, they fired from the building in which Lee is working."

My heart dropped. I then went to the garage to see whether the rifle was there, and I saw that the blanket was still there, and I said, "Thank God." I thought, "Can there really be such a stupid man in the world that could do something like that?" But I was already rather upset at that time—I don't know why. Perhaps my intuition.

I didn't know what I was doing.

Mr. Rankin. Did you look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't unroll the blanket. It was in its usual position, and it appeared to have something inside.

Mr. Rankin. Did you at any time open the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. Oswald. No, only once.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about that.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And what about Mrs. Paine? Did she look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. Oswald. She didn't know about the rifle.

Perhaps she did know. But she never told me about it.

I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. When did you learn that the rifle was not in the blanket?

Mrs. Oswald. When the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a rifle, and I said "Yes."

Mr. Rankin. Then what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. They began to search the apartment. When they came to the garage and took the blanket, I thought, "Well, now, they will find it."

They opened the blanket but there was no rifle there.

Then, of course, I already knew that it was Lee. Because, before that, while I thought that the rifle was at home, I did not think that Lee had done that. I thought the police had simply come because he was always under suspicion.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by that—he was always under suspicion?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, the FBI would visit us.

Mr. Rankin. Did they indicate what they suspected him of?

Mrs. Oswald. They didn't tell me anything.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say to the police when they came?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember now. I was so upset that I don't remember what I said.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding ring that morning?

Mrs. Oswald. No, because I didn't know it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you thought was in the blanket?

Mrs. Oswald. No, it seems to me I didn't say that. They didn't ask me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine also watch them?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me, as far as I remember.

Mr. Rankin. When the police came, did Mrs. Paine act as an interpreter for you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. She told me about what they had said. But I was not being questioned so that she would interpret. She told me herself. She very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion.

Mr. Rankin. You mean by that that she answered questions of the police and then told you what she had said?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

75 Mr. Rankin. And what did she tell you that she had said to the police?

Mrs. Oswald. She talked to them in the usual manner, in English, when they were addressing her.

But when they addressed me, she was interpreting.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered the wedding ring there at the house?

Mrs. Oswald. About 2 o'clock, I think. I don't remember. Then everything got mixed up, all time.

Mr. Rankin. Did the police spend considerable time there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember the names of any of the officers?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't.

Mr. Rankin. How did they treat you?

Mrs. Oswald. Rather gruff, not very polite. They kept on following me. I wanted to change clothes because I was dressed in a manner fitting to the house. And they would not even let me go into the dressing room to change.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, what could I tell them?

I asked them, but they didn't want to. They were rather rough. They kept on saying, hurry up.

Mr. Rankin. Did they want you to go with them?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you leave the house with them right soon after they came?

Mrs. Oswald. About an hour, I think.

Mr. Rankin. And what were they doing during that hour?

Mrs. Oswald. They searched the entire house.

Mr. Rankin. Did they take anything with them?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—everything, even some tapes—Ruth's tapes from a tape recorder, her things. I don't know what.

Mr. Rankin. Did they take many of your belongings?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't watch at that time. After all, it is not my business. If they need it, let them take it.

Mr. Rankin. Did they give you an inventory of what they took?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. You have never received an inventory?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you now know what they took?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I know that I am missing my documents, that I am missing Lee's documents, Lee's wedding ring.

Mr. Rankin. What about clothing?

Mrs. Oswald. Robert had some of Lee's clothing. I don't know what was left of Lee's things, but I hope they will return it. No one needs it.

Mr. Rankin. What documents do you refer to that you are missing?

Mrs. Oswald. My foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth certificate, my wedding certificate—marriage certificate, June's and Rachel's birth certificates. Then various letters, my letters from friends. Perhaps something that has some bearing—photographs, whatever has some reference—whatever refers to the business at hand, let it remain.

Then my diploma. I don't remember everything now.

Mr. Rankin. What documents of your husband's do you recall that they took?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't see what they took. At least at the present time I have none of Lee's documents.

Mr. Rankin. The documents of his that you refer to that you don't have are similar to your own that you described?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He also had a passport, several work books, labor cards. I don't know what men here—what sort of documents men here carry.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, it is now 12:30.

The Chairman. I think we will recess now for lunch.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.)

76

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4, 1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that.

Mrs. Oswald. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with congratulations on the October Revolution—on the date of the October Revolution.

Mr. Rankin. And you think that that came in that Exhibit 19, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any other letters.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 19.

The Chairman. It may be in the record and given the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and that she might have—did have information in that regard.

Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time that I hear anything about this.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know——

Mrs. Oswald. That is all untrue, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the Cuban government at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any agency of the United States Government?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any government?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your husband to kill the President?

Mrs. Oswald. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way, whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, that he would be known in history.

Mr. Rankin. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the President, for this purpose?

Mrs. Oswald. That is my opinion. I don't know how true that is.

Mr. Rankin. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think he had the same motive or purpose in doing that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that, yes.

Mr. Rankin. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d, following his arrest?

Mrs. Oswald. On the 22d I did not see him.

On the 23d I met with him.

Mr. Rankin. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your request or his?

77 Mrs. Oswald. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I wanted to see him.

Mr. Rankin. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d, after his arrest?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And what answer were you given at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I was not permitted to.

Mr. Rankin. Who gave you that answer?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. The police.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know what officer of the police?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you spend the evening on the night of the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs. Paine, together with Lee's mother.

Mr. Rankin. Did you receive any threats from anyone at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after the assassination, did you have a conversation with him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And where did this occur?

Mrs. Oswald. In the police department.

Mr. Rankin. Were just the two of you together at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, the mother was there together with me.

Mr. Rankin. At that time what did you say to him and what did he say to you?

Mrs. Oswald. You probably know better than I do what I told him.

Mr. Rankin. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to us, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything of that. It was simply talk.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that the police had been there and that a search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a rifle, and I had answered yes.

And he said that if there would be a trial, and that if I am questioned it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer.

Mr. Gopadze. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything she didn't want to—at that time, she told me she knew about that, that she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to.

Mrs. Oswald. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?" And then I understood that he knew about it.

Mr. Gopadze. At that time I did not know.

Mrs. Oswald. I thought you had been told about it because the conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I was talking to Lee—after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was recorded.

Mr. Rankin. Let me see if I can clarify what you were saying.

As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is right.

78 Mr. Rankin. And you told Mr. Gopadze you already knew that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. Gopadze. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to.

I said, "That is right."

Mrs. Oswald. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him.

Mr. Gopadze. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission—I would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI in some way, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. He had come with them, and I decided he must have been.

Mr. Rankin. And your ill feeling towards the FBI was——

Mrs. Oswald. He did not tell me that he was with the FBI, but he was with them.

Mr. Rankin. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband was guilty in regard to the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed President Kennedy, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult to believe in that.

Mr. Rankin. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Unfortunately, yes.

Mr. Rankin. And you related those facts that you learned to what you already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him at that time if he had killed Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I said, "I don't believe that you did that, and everything will turn out well."

After all, I couldn't accuse him—after all, he was my husband.

Mr. Rankin. And what did he say to that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather, he tried to appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that he was afraid.

This was just a feeling. It is hard to describe.

Mr. Rankin. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw in his eyes that caused you to think that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself.

Mr. Rankin. How could you tell that?

Mrs. Oswald. I saw it in his eyes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. After Kennedy—I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me anything, and I didn't see him again.

Mr. Rankin. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do with the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

79 Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to escape after the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't ask him about that.

Mr. Rankin. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be shot?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you spend the evening of November 23d?

Mrs. Oswald. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be—in a hotel—but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in Dallas, but I don't know the name.

Mr. Rankin. Who was with you at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's mother.

Mr. Rankin. Anyone else?

Mrs. Oswald. No—June and Rachel.

Mr. Rankin. Was Robert with you at all?

Mrs. Oswald. I saw Robert in the police—at the police station, but he did not stay with us at the hotel.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the evening of November 22d, were you at Ruth Paine's house?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what had happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs. Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and said I should not talk and that she would not talk.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say why she would not talk?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She talked to the reporters.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to tell any story?

Mrs. Oswald. She has a mania—only money, money, money.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine about something concerning the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled about, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. And after the quarrel, did you leave there?

Mrs. Oswald. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it to anyone.

On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the photographs when she suggested that?

Mrs. Oswald. She saw it, while I was destroying them.

Mr. Rankin. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?

Mrs. Oswald. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course—many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who said that to you?

80 Mrs. Oswald. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission in order to stay in this country, don't you, now?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission here in order to be able to stay in the country.

Mrs. Oswald. I understand that.

Mr. Rankin. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you could about this matter, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. This is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this.

Mr. Rankin. Did these various people from the police and the Secret Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it?

Mrs. Oswald. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of that office. At least he was a representative of that office.

Mr. Rankin. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it seems to me.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say to you?

Mrs. Oswald. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if I were to help them.

Mr. Rankin. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you?

Mrs. Oswald. In the sense that I would have more rights in this country. I understood it that way.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not understand it that way.

You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if I were to help.

Mr. Rankin. Did you——

Mrs. Oswald. This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel that it was a threat?

Mrs. Oswald. This was not quite a threat—it was not a threat. But it was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I sensed that.

Mr. Rankin. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to work in this country if you cooperated?

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. No.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the Commission about?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, contrived way.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that you felt treated you in that manner?

Mrs. Oswald. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was very attentive towards me.

81 Mr. Rankin. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your husband was killed?

Mrs. Oswald. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to me, and Gregory—no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert, and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel, we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were supposed to go to the police station to see him.

Mr. Rankin. That was on November 24th, on Sunday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things or perhaps—in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today.

At first he said that it wasn't serious—perhaps just not to frighten me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was told that he had been seriously wounded.

Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I wanted to take several things which I needed with me and asked her to prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring.

Soon after that—Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there, and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had died.

After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed for several days—perhaps two weeks—I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your husband had been shot?

Mrs. Oswald. Two o'clock in the afternoon, I think.

Mr. Rankin. And where were you at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in a car.

Mr. Rankin. Just riding around, or at some particular place?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not at two o'clock—earlier. Lee was shot at 11 o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one.

Mr. Rankin. And where was the car that you were in at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. We were on the way to Chief Curry, en route from the hotel.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do after you went to the motel?

Mrs. Oswald. I left with Robert and we prepared for the funeral.

Then Ruth Paine sent my things to me via the agent.

Mr. Gopadze. She would like a recess for a little while. She has a headache.

The Chairman. Yes, we will recess.

(Brief recess)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, thank you.

The Chairman. Very well.

Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety.

Mrs. Oswald. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of a man to try and escape.

Mr. Rankin. You will recall that in the interviews, after the assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do it, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that.

You must understand that now I only speak the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill President Kennedy.

82 Mrs. Oswald. I now have enough facts to say that.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was.

Mr. Rankin. You have stated in some of your interviews that your husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you recall when this happened?

Mrs. Oswald. That was in New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Was it more than one occasion?

Mrs. Oswald. When he said that, that was only once.

Mr. Rankin. And do you know what caused him to say that?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some happening that caused it?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this case?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and many acquaintances.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be so decisive about the case?

Mrs. Oswald. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we lived in New Orleans?

I think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything.

Perhaps she does have something.

But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something that might reveal, uncover this.

Mr. Rankin. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so?

Mrs. Oswald. Never.

I don't want to see her, I didn't want to.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might be helpful to the Commission to know that background.

I hope you will bear with us.

Have you had some differences with your mother-in-law?

Mrs. Oswald. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why. I don't think that she can help you.

But if it is a formality, then, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those differences?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in everything, that she knows more.

This is what our differences are.

Mr. Rankin. And have you responded to her when she said those things?

Mrs. Oswald. She said this by means of newspapers and television.

I haven't seen her.

I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, because she would scratch my eyes out.

Mr. Rankin. Are there any other differences between you and your mother-in-law that you have not described?

Mrs. Oswald. No, there are no more.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

83 Mr. Rankin. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. Is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money that he had from any source?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover agent for the FBI.

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you believe that he was at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for the CIA at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you believe that he was?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know Jack Ruby, the man that killed your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you ever known of him?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your husband knew Jack Ruby before the killing?

Mrs. Oswald. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent nightclubs, as the papers said.

Mr. Rankin. How do you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He didn't drink. Why should he then go?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why Jack Ruby killed your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. About that, Jack Ruby should be questioned.

Mr. Rankin. I have to ask you, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't tell me.

Mr. Rankin. And do you know any reason why he should?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper now, it is an abnormal face.

Mr. Rankin. Has your husband ever mentioned the name Jack Ruby to you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you can recall?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he killed Lee.

I would like to consult with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Gopadze.

The Chairman. You may.

(Brief recess)

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, would you like to add something to your testimony?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I will tell you why I left the room.

I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I have not mailed it yet, to the attorney—to the prosecuting attorney who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even—that if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby, and that I wanted to protect him.

84 It is simply that it is pity to—I feel sorry for another human life. Because this will not return—bring back to life Kennedy or the others who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps they will pay some attention to it.

That is all.

Mr. Rankin. Had you ever been in the Carousel Nightclub?

Mrs. Oswald. I have never been in nightclubs.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know where it was located before your husband was killed by Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know it now either.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was right handed.

His brother writes with his left hand and so does—his brother and mother both write with their left hand.

And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ.

Mr. Rankin. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death penalty imposed?

Mrs. Oswald. In their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing.

In my opinion, it is not so.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything more about the assassination of President Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know anything.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the Commission?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know that.

Mr. Rankin. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia, and ask you about that for a little while.

Can you tell us the time and place of your birth?

Mrs. Oswald. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the Arkhangelskaya Region.

Mr. Rankin. Who were your parents?

Mrs. Oswald. Names?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, please.

Mrs. Oswald. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a laboratory assistant.

Mr. Rankin. And your father?

Mrs. Oswald. And I had a stepfather. I had no father. I never knew him.

Mr. Rankin. Who did you live with as a child?

Mrs. Oswald. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother—grandmother on my mother's side.

Mr. Rankin. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to live with your mother and your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately five years old.

Mr. Rankin. And then you moved to live with your mother and your stepfather, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And was that in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother—also with my half brother and half sister.

Mr. Rankin. What was your stepfather's business?

Mrs. Oswald. He was an electrician in a power station in Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have brothers and sisters?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How many?

Mrs. Oswald. One brother, one sister—from my mother's second marriage.

Mr. Rankin. How old were they?

85 Mrs. Oswald. How old are they, or were they?

Mr. Rankin. Are they—I mean in comparison with your age. Were they three or four years older than you?

Mrs. Oswald. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is probably 9 years younger than I am. About four years between brother and sister.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. That is, you don't know, or you know he was not?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I know that he was not a member.

Mr. Rankin. Did you live for a period with your mother alone?

Mrs. Oswald. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle—my mother's brother.

Mr. Rankin. What was your stepfather's name?

Mrs. Oswald. Alexandr Ivanovich Medvedev.

Mr. Rankin. When did you leave the home of your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. In 1961. No—1959.

Mr. Rankin. What was your grandfather's occupation?

Mrs. Oswald. On my mother's side?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. He was a ship's captain.

Mr. Rankin. Was he a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He died shortly after the war.

Mr. Rankin. Which war?

Mrs. Oswald. Second.

Mr. Rankin. Did you get along well with your grandparents?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I was their favorite.

Mr. Rankin. Did you get along with your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I was not a good child. I was too fresh with him.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother and your stepfather move to Zguritsa?

Mrs. Oswald. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot of food, and we lived very well.

After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were dekulakized subsequently.

By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very cold.

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother have any occupation?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, laboratory assistant—I said that.

Mr. Rankin. Was she a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall when your mother died?

Mrs. Oswald. In 1957.

Mr. Rankin. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How much was it?

Mrs. Oswald. All children received pensions.

We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles.

Mr. Rankin. Was that called a children's pension?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18.

Mr. Rankin. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. It was paid to me directly.

Mr. Rankin. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your stepfather adopt you?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I was not adopted.

Mr. Rankin. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you get along with him?

86 Mrs. Oswald. I loved them very much, and they loved me.

Mr. Rankin. And your half sister, too?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what schools you went to?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied in a pharmaceutical institute—pharmaceutical school, rather than institute.

Mr. Rankin. Where was the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. Oswald. In Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go through high school before you went to the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers?

Mrs. Oswald. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that nature.

Mr. Rankin. Were you a good student?

Mrs. Oswald. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved me. My language, you know—I talk a lot, and get a good grade.

Mr. Rankin. Did you work part-time while you were going to school?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study.

Mr. Rankin. And what did you do in working?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way.

And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist—as a pharmacist's assistant.

Mr. Rankin. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work?

Mrs. Oswald. I think I received 36 per month—this is new rubles—at that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who always saved something for me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you save any money while you were working before you graduated?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you work after you graduated?

Mrs. Oswald. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would marry again, and, therefore, I left.

But he hasn't married up until now.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is.

Mrs. Oswald. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my diploma?

I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me a new diploma?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you—the Commission hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that——

Mrs. Oswald. They should have treated it a little more carefully, though.

Mr. Rankin. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't our action.

Mrs. Oswald. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry—it is a pity for my diploma.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20.

The Chairman. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and received in evidence.)

87 Mr. Rankin. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission to the school?

Mrs. Oswald. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date of issue and the date of graduation.

Mr. Rankin. Isn't there a place for admission, though?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, there is a place for it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when you were admitted to the school?

Mrs. Oswald. In 1955.

Mr. Krimer. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not for a full date.

Mr. Dulles. 1955, did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, 1955.

Mr. Rankin. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, what were your duties?

Mrs. Oswald. When I worked in the pharmacy?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it.

Mr. Rankin. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and get the job? How was that arranged?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work somewhere else.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay in this first job?

Mrs. Oswald. I was there for three days, which is a probationary period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference which I received after I was going to the United States was not very good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be that a good worker could leave.

Mr. Rankin. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. You were not assigned there, then?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go to and work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then they may register, such as Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is, registered in the police department.

Mr. Rankin. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a job, is that what you mean?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to be registered in Leningrad from some other point?

Mrs. Oswald. First you must have relatives who might have some spare living88 space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. You know money does a great deal everywhere.

Mr. Rankin. And then after you have shown that you have a place to live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to have something else?

Mrs. Oswald. Not always. One has to have connections, acquaintances.

Mr. Rankin. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered.

Mr. Rankin. But since you were registered there, you could have found a position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk instead of staying in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family circumstances.

What can one do?

It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather.

Mr. Rankin. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home that you sought some other city in which to work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did not have enough money to pay for an apartment.

I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed there that would pay you so you could have an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little.

Mr. Rankin. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then?

Mrs. Oswald. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the normal workday is only 6½ hours, because they consider that to be hazardous work.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. What do you mean by social life?

Mr. Rankin. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, pleasant times?

Mrs. Oswald. An awful lot.

Mr. Rankin. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you enjoyed it there?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay there on vacation?

Mrs. Oswald. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I spent in Leningrad with some friends.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the name of the rest home?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the people there to register you?

Mrs. Oswald. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle.

Mr. Rankin. And were you registered there then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. Forty-five, as everywhere.

Mr. Rankin. Was that per week?

Mrs. Oswald. No, that is a month. That is not America.

Mr. Rankin. Is that 45 rubles?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Per month?

89 Mr. Dulles. Old rubles or new rubles?

Mr. Rankin. Is that old rubles?

Mrs. Oswald. New rubles.

Mr. Rankin. What were your hours in this work?

Mrs. Oswald. 10 a.m., to 4:30 p.m.

Mr. Rankin. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a big city or a small city?

Mrs. Oswald. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military hospital—there the pay is higher.

Mr. Rankin. What was the nature of your work?

Mrs. Oswald. Preparation of prescriptions.

Mr. Rankin. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or did you just put them up yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. I prepared them myself.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a supervisor?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I was responsible for it.

Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not prepare medications—he is only an administrator.

Mr. Rankin. How many days of the week did you work on this job?

Mrs. Oswald. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I didn't work.

Mr. Rankin. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for friends, or somebody would ask us.

Mr. Rankin. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying there?

Mrs. Oswald. No. They had—they were well provided for, and my uncle wanted that I spend the money on myself.

Mr. Rankin. What was the name of this uncle?

Mrs. Oswald. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov.

Mr. Rankin. What was the nature of his work?

Mrs. Oswald. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the Byelorussian SSR.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have something to do with lumbering?

Mrs. Oswald. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry institute. Technical institute.

Mr. Rankin. Is he an officer?

Mrs. Oswald. He was a colonel—a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, very nice.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a telephone in the apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you save money?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in one day—three days tops.

Mr. Rankin. What would you spend it for?

Mrs. Oswald. First all the necessary things which I had to buy—shoes, an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to wear warm clothes.

Mr. Rankin. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he is a Communist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why you were discharged?

Mrs. Oswald. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they didn't90 know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views because you married an American?

Mrs. Oswald. They didn't say that.

Mr. Rankin. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had them?

Mrs. Oswald. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I think it was sort of insurance.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of the Comsomol?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you attend?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me—I was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly—for what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write."

But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write?

Mr. Rankin. Did you make any objection to being removed from the Comsomol?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you belong to any social clubs there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you belong to any culture groups?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. After you came to the United States, did you correspond with some of these friends?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we made later.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a social life there at Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties or to the opera or theater, or what?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a restaurant.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first meet Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And there I met Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. Oswald. On March 4th.

Mr. Rankin. What year?

Mrs. Oswald. 1961.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you meet him?

Mrs. Oswald. In Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. Yes—but can you tell us the place?

Mrs. Oswald. In the Palace of Trade Unions.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are public meetings?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for parties.

Mr. Rankin. They have dances?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. Rankin. Did someone introduce you to him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Who introduced you?

91 Mrs. Oswald. I had gone there with my friends from the medical institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee.

Mr. Rankin. What was his name?

Mrs. Oswald. Yuri Mereginsky.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier—this was easier.

Mr. Rankin. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?

Mrs. Oswald. A little. Somewhat similar.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?

Mrs. Oswald. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

Mr. Rankin. Did that make any difference?

Mrs. Oswald. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet Americans very often.

Mr. Rankin. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of times?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him?

Mrs. Oswald. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and he was there.

Mr. Rankin. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there?

Mrs. Oswald. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I should come there, if I could.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn what was wrong with him then?

Mrs. Oswald. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps.

Mr. Rankin. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being there alone.

Mr. Rankin. And did you observe a scar on his left arm?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were married.

Mr. Rankin. What did you find out about that scar?

Mrs. Oswald. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked me never to ask about that again.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn what caused the scar?

Mrs. Oswald. I found out here, now, recently.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some time?

Mrs. Oswald. I found that out now.

Mr. Rankin. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk about America at all?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.

Mr. Rankin. What do you recall that he said about it?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said that his home was warmer and that people lived better.

Mr. Rankin. Did he talk about returning?

Mrs. Oswald. Then? No.

Mr. Rankin. Did he describe the life in America as being very attractive?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it.

Mr. Rankin. Did he——

Mrs. Oswald. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was saying good things about America.

Mr. Rankin. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

92 Mr. Rankin. Before you were married, did you find out anything about his plans to return to America?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn anything before you were married about the fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he said no, he could not.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why?

Mrs. Oswald. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would not forgive him such an act.

Mr. Rankin. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would like to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what attracted you to him?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. First, the fact that he was—he didn't look like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when he was courting you?

Mrs. Oswald. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather.

Mr. Rankin. Where was he living at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I never thought that I would wind up living there.

Mr. Rankin. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. We had a small room—one room, kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. A large terrace, balcony.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what he paid for rent?

Mrs. Oswald. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles per month.

Mr. Rankin. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was cheap.

Mr. Rankin. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city?

Mrs. Oswald. No, in that city they have good apartments because the houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot compare it to private houses people live in here.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have an automobile?

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is difficult to have an automobile.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have a television set?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have a telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. No—I don't like television.

Mr. Rankin. Why?

Mrs. Oswald. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the movies.

Mr. Rankin. What was his occupation at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what his work was?

Mrs. Oswald. As an ordinary laborer—metal worker. From that point of view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main thing.

Mr. Rankin. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments?

93 Mrs. Oswald. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say whether he liked this job?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't like it.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about it?

Mrs. Oswald. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He didn't like that.

Mr. Rankin. Anything else?

Mrs. Oswald. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he liked it or not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked that?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain better living conditions and to get the benefit of them.

Mr. Rankin. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with the Soviet system?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among the masses and see.

But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult.

The Chairman. I think we better adjourn now for the day.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Thursday, February 6, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again. Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right?

94 Mrs. Oswald. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later.

Mr. Rankin. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the rifle there, as you understood it?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired it. But I didn't see him.

Mr. Rankin. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after he came back, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And where do you remember his having it in the places you lived?

Mrs. Oswald. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a box of about the size of this.

Mr. Rankin. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?

Mrs. Oswald. About the size here on the pad.

Mr. Rankin. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long?

Mrs. Oswald. Probably.

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, and make fun of him?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course.

Mr. Rankin. Did he react to that?

Mrs. Oswald. He became very angry.

Mr. Rankin. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make fun of his ideas?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his childhood?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs, where he was a boy in New York, in the zoo. Then in the Army—there is a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you about anything he resented about his childhood?

Mrs. Oswald. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it.

Mr. Rankin. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he tell you much about what he did?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied.

Mr. Rankin. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with the Marines?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance to go out.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about his mother during this period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee whether95 he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said that I should not question him about it.

After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he didn't love her?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother Robert at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about having any affection for him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he loved Robert. He said that when Robert married Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of Pic—I guess the last name was Pic—Robert Pic?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name.

He said that at one time they lived with this John Pic and his wife, but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant.

Mr. Rankin. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as high for the work he was doing?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He received as much as the others in similar jobs.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have friends in Minsk when you first met him?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How did he seem to get along with these friends?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a very good relationship with them.

Mr. Rankin. Did he discuss any of them with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us when you married your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. April 30, 1961.

Mr. Rankin. Was there a marriage ceremony?

Mrs. Oswald. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called Zags, where we were registered.

Mr. Rankin. Was anyone else present at the ceremony?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, our friends were there.

Mr. Rankin. Who else was there?

Mrs. Oswald. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there for that reason.

Mr. Rankin. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's apartment there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you buy any new furniture?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When was your baby born?

Mrs. Oswald. February 15, 1962.

Mr. Rankin. What is her name?

Mrs. Oswald. June Lee Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Did you stop working before the birth of the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you return to work after the baby was born?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did you and your husband get along during the period that you were in Minsk, after you were married?

Mrs. Oswald. We lived well.

Mr. Rankin. Were you a member of the trade union at Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

96 Mr. Rankin. Did you have a membership booklet?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, a booklet.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade union booklet that you had there.

Mrs. Oswald. I never have a good photograph.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 21.

The Chairman. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Did you pay dues to the trade union?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was?

Mrs. Oswald. I forgot to paste the stamps in.

Mr. Rankin. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't seem to be in there.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. But you made the payments—you just didn't put the stamps in, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the payment.

Mr. Rankin. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather than 1941. Do you know how that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was older and put down 1940 instead of 1941.

Mr. Rankin. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk. Do you know why that would occur?

Mrs. Oswald. Because the booklet was issued in Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. Not at all—absolutely not.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he was a member of any organization there?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently.

Mr. Rankin. Did he go hunting while he was there?

Mrs. Oswald. We only went once, with him and with my friends.

Mr. Rankin. Was that when he went hunting for squirrels?

Mrs. Oswald. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, but they didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after your marriage that you didn't know where he went?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go back to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. After we were married, perhaps a month after.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the matter at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. We didn't discuss it—we talked about it—because we didn't make any specific plans.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what you said about it then?

Mrs. Oswald. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go."

Mr. Rankin. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in connection with your plans to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. We went to the American Embassy.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that? About his passport?

97 Mrs. Oswald. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the following morning I was to come there.

Mr. Rankin. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket and he made the flight.

Mr. Rankin. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow. Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the authorities.

Mr. Rankin. When the decision was made to come to the United States, did you discuss that with your family?

Mrs. Oswald. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to talk about it for the time being.

Mr. Rankin. Later, did you discuss it with your family?

Mrs. Oswald. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were trying to arrange to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to your going to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Somewhat. You can't really call that opposition. There were difficult times.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol. This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for a long time.

Mr. Rankin. And that was all because you were planning to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your leaving?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

What?

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were hospitalized for?

Mrs. Oswald. I was nervous, but I didn't go to the hospital. I am nervous now, too.

Mr. Rankin. Then you went to Kharkov on a vacation, didn't you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had a positive they thought—they thought that he had positive—even though he doesn't. It turned out that we both had the same Rh factor.

Mr. Rankin. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you were doing?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy.

Mr. Rankin. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. Was that something different?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I was—I have to call it—an analyst. My job was to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that.

98 Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist.

Mrs. Oswald. The entry here said, "Hired as chemist analyst of the pharmacy."

The next entry says, "Transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant."

These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher than the other—not because one is a type of management and the other is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but not in the sense of a grade of service.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 22.

The Chairman. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals will be held subject to the further order of the Commission.

The Chairman. Very well. That may be done.

Mr. Rankin. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that perhaps he might even be arrested.

Mr. Rankin. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. The United States.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities visited your husband while you were trying to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. What was the occasion for your traveling to Kharkov in 1961?

Mrs. Oswald. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to come there for a rest because I was on vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone go with you?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay?

Mrs. Oswald. Three weeks, I think.

Mr. Rankin. Did you write to your husband while you were gone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was your aunt's name Mikhilova?

Mrs. Oswald. Mikhilova, yes.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and not with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He wanted to go with me, but he could not.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what delayed your departure to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about that, and what did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say?

Mrs. Oswald. I thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me.

Mr. Rankin. Where did you stay in Moscow when you went there about your visa?

Mrs. Oswald. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy.

Mr. Rankin. How long were you there on that trip?

Mrs. Oswald. I think about 10 days, perhaps a little longer.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the Soviet Union?

99 Mrs. Oswald. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated—all medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we would be in first place.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that records your military status.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is an indication there "non-Party member".

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 23.

The Chairman. It may be received.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why——

Mrs. Oswald. Many were surprised at that—here and in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why he went to Minsk, or was allowed to go to Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. He was sent to Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. By that, you mean by direction of the government?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the diary that you have just referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't understand it.

Is that all? It seems to me there was more.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we have received. There are some other materials that I will call your attention to, but apparently they are not part of that.

I offer in evidence Exhibit 24.

The Chairman. It may be admitted and take the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that everything that Lee had written?

Mr. Rankin. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard to the time he was in Russia.

Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing it daily or from time to time—how it was made?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter read it to you later, so you will know what is in it?

You may, if you wish.

Mrs. Oswald. Some other time, later, when I know English myself perhaps.

The Chairman. You may see it any time you wish.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no reason.

The Chairman. No, there is no reason why you cannot. You may have it.

Mr. Thorne. Thank you.

100 Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us.

Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having seen that.

Mrs. Oswald. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in it. I didn't know this was a diary.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what it was?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the paper itself and the handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 25.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in savings when you left Moscow for the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300 rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps.

Mr. Rankin. How did you travel from Moscow to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. I told you—from Moscow by train, through Poland, Germany, and Holland, and from Holland by boat to New York. From New York to Dallas by air.

Mr. Rankin. I think you told us by another ship from Holland. I wonder if it wasn't the SS Maasdam. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps. I probably am mixed up in the names because it is a strange name.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you exchanged United States money for Polish money during this trip?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, in Warsaw, on the black market.

Mr. Rankin. Did you buy food there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Some good Polish beer and a lot of candy.

By the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to get it. More than the official rate.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband drink then?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he doesn't like beer. I drank the beer. I don't like wine, by the way.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at any time in the Soviet Union by Soviet Intelligence people?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. During the time your husband was in the Soviet Union, did you observe any indication of mental disorder?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. How did he appear to get along with people that he knew in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. Very well. At least, he had friends there. He didn't have any here.

Mr. Rankin. How much time did you spend in Amsterdam on the way to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Two or three days, it seems to me.

Mr. Rankin. What did you do there?

101 Mrs. Oswald. Walked around the city, did some sightseeing.

Mr. Rankin. Did anybody visit you there?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Did you visit anyone?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. What hotel did you stay in?

Mrs. Oswald. We didn't stop at a hotel. We stopped at a place where they rent apartments. The address was given to us in the American Embassy.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what you paid in the way of rent?

Mrs. Oswald. No, Lee paid it. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. How did your husband spend his time when he was aboard the ship?

Mrs. Oswald. I was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to walk around with me, because I wasn't dressed as well as the other girls. Basically, I stayed in my cabin while Lee went to the movies and they have different games there. I don't know what he did there.

Mr. Rankin. In Exhibit 25, the notations on the Holland American Line stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations. Did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, it is time for a recess.

The Chairman. Yes. We will take a recess now.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

We will continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. He read the Daily Worker newspaper in the English language.

Mr. Rankin. Anything else?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for reading purposes.

Mr. Rankin. Was he reading anything in Russian at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, newspapers, and nothing else.

Mr. Rankin. No library books?

Mrs. Oswald. No. It was very hard for him.

Mr. Rankin. Did he go to any schools while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 26 and ask you if you can tell us what that is.

Mrs. Oswald. The title of this document is shown here, "Information for those who are departing for abroad. Personal data—name, last name, date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married or not, and purpose of the trip."

Mr. Rankin. What does it say about the purpose of the trip—do you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. Private exit.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what members of your family are referred to there under that question?

Mrs. Oswald. It shows here "none." I think before this was filled out—this was before June's birth.

Mr. Rankin. That doesn't refer then to members of your family, like your uncles or aunts, or anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 26.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 26, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, I hand you Exhibit 27 and ask you if you can recall what that is.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior to departure for abroad.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 27.

102 The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 27, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what relatives you referred to when they asked for close relatives?

Mrs. Oswald. It must be shown there. I don't remember. Probably my uncle.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this exhibit, No. 27?

Mrs. Oswald. This is my handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. You say it is all your handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, can you tell us what Exhibit 28 is?

Mrs. Oswald. That is the same thing. This was a draft.

Mr. Rankin. You mean a rough draft?

Mrs. Oswald. A rough draft of the same thing.

Mr. Rankin. And the other one is the final?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. Perhaps there were several drafts, I don't know whether this is from the Embassy or from some other source. These are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph. Lee and I were playing.

Mr. Rankin. Then, Mrs. Oswald, you think both Exhibit 27 and 28 are drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. We were playing dominoes, and this is the score.

Mr. Rankin. I ask that Exhibit 28 be received in evidence, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 28, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 29 and ask you if you can tell us what that is?

Mrs. Oswald. This is a residence permit, passport—a passport for abroad. This is a foreign passport for Russians who go abroad.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that you had six months in which to leave under that passport?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This all has to be filled out before you are allowed to go abroad.

Mr. Rankin. Whose handwriting is in Exhibit 29?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know who wrote that. It is not I. Officials who issue the passport.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 29.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 29, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why the passport was made valid until January 11, 1964?

Mrs. Oswald. Because the passport which I turned in and for which I received this one in exchange was valid until 1964.

Mr. Rankin. You had a passport prior to this one, then?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Had you obtained that before you were married?

Mrs. Oswald. All citizens of the U.S.S.R. 16 and over must have a passport. It would be good if everyone had a passport here. It would help the Government more.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you have told us considerably about your husband's unhappiness with the United States and his idea that things would be much better in Cuba, if he could get there. Do you recall that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. The problem of unemployment.

Mr. Rankin. Anything else?

Mrs. Oswald. I already said what he didn't like—that it was hard to get103 an education, that medical care is very expensive. About his political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything against the leaders of the government here?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have now except the physical exhibits, and I think we could do that at 2 o'clock.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, we are going to recess now until 2 o'clock. You must be quite tired by now. And this afternoon we are going to introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up our record.

When we finish with those, I think your testimony will be completed.

And I think we should finish today.

You won't be unhappy about that, will you?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Thank you.

The Chairman. 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mrs. Oswald has examined a considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. In order to be helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as the case may be.

And, after I offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, I will ask Mr. Thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the writer of the letter in the various cases. These exhibits are Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 30 is a telegram from a former fiance's mother.

Exhibit No. 31 is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the name of Ella Soboleva.

Exhibit No. 32 is a letter from the Ziger family, who are friends.

Exhibit No. 33 is another letter from Alexander Ziger. A friend of the family's.

Exhibit No. 34 is a letter concerning departure to the United States by Marina and her husband. She doesn't know who sent the letter or who received it. It is merely some material that she has.

Exhibit No. 35 is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter which is not shown.

Exhibit No. 36 is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one that sent the telegram, and Exhibit No. 30.

Exhibit No. 37 is a letter from Marina to Lee while she was in the hospital, during the birth of June Lee.

Exhibit No. 38 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, a friend.

Mr. Rankin. When you say fiance, do you mean she was engaged to someone else?

Mr. Thorne. This is what I understand—prior to her relationship to Lee.

Exhibit No. 39 is another letter from Ella Soboleva.

Exhibit No. 40 is a letter from Lee Harvey to Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee, during the birth of the baby.

Exhibit No. 41 is a letter from her Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 42 is a letter from their friend Pavel.

Exhibit No. 43 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never finished.

Exhibit No. 44 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never finished.

Exhibit No. 45 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, the same person who sent a letter in Exhibit No. 38.

104 Exhibit No. 46 is a letter—is another letter from Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 47 is a letter from a friend by the name of Tolya.

Exhibit No. 48 is an address of one of Marina's friends.

Exhibit No. 49 is Marina's draft of a letter to the consulate.

May I see Exhibit 49? I am trying to clear up a point.

Mr. Dulles. What is the date of that?

Mrs. Oswald. That is not a letter. That is an autobiography.

Mr. Thorne. Yes, that is correct. It is the draft of an autobiography for the Russian Consulate.

Exhibit No. 50 is a letter from a friend Erick Titovetz.

Exhibit No. 51 is another letter from Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 52 is a letter received by Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee.

Exhibit No. 53 is Lee Harvey Oswald's writing.

Exhibit No. 54 is a letter from a friend, Laliya.

Exhibit No. 55 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in Kharkov.

Exhibit No. 56 is the same.

Exhibit No. 57 is a letter from Aunt Valya.

Exhibit No. 58 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee.

Exhibit No. 59 is the same.

Exhibit No. 60 is the same.

Exhibit No. 61 is the same.

Exhibit No. 62 is a letter from Anna Meller, who lives in Dallas, to Marina.

Exhibit No. 63 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in the hospital, giving birth to June Lee.

Exhibit No. 64 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald—is a letter to Lee from Erick Titovetz.

Exhibit No. 65 is the second page of Exhibit No. 62. That completes the exhibits.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive.

The Chairman. They may be admitted and take the appropriate numbers.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 30 through 65, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you remember I asked you about the diary that your husband kept. You said that he completed it in Russia before he came to this country, do you remember that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that diary were made each day as the events occurred?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not each day.

Mr. Rankin. Were they noted shortly after the time they occurred?

Mrs. Oswald. Not all events. What happened in Moscow I don't think that Lee wrote that in Moscow.

Mr. Rankin. What about the entries concerning what happened in Minsk?

Mrs. Oswald. He wrote this while he was working.

Mr. Rankin. And you think those entries were made close to the time that the events occurred?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. As I understand you, you think that the entries concerning the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk were entered some time while he was in Minsk, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. I think so, but I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why your husband was sent to Minsk to work and live after he came to the Soviet Union, instead of some other city?

Mrs. Oswald. He was sent there because this is a young and developing city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed personnel. It is an old, a very old city. But after the war, it had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been destroyed. It was easier in the sense of living space in Minsk—it was easier to secure living space. Many immigrants are sent to Minsk. There are many immigrants there now.

105 Mr. Rankin. Were there many Americans there?

Mrs. Oswald. Americans? No. But from South America, from Argentina, we knew many. Many Argentinians live there—comparatively many.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say much about the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk and what he did there?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said that he walked in Moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums, that he liked Moscow better than Minsk, and that he would have liked to live in Moscow.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about having been on the radio or television at Moscow?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he was on the radio.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when he asked for Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. When he was not granted Soviet citizenship, did he say anything about the Soviet Government or his reaction towards their failure to give him citizenship?

Mrs. Oswald. When I read the diary, I concluded from the diary that Lee wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union and that he had been refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. Therefore, I had always thought that Lee had been offered citizenship—but that he didn't want it.

Mr. Rankin. What diary are you referring to that you read?

Mrs. Oswald. The diary about which we talked here previously—in the preceding session.

Mr. Rankin. The one that was completed in Russia that you referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when did you first read that?

Mrs. Oswald. I had never read it, because I didn't understand English. But when I was questioned by the FBI, they read me excerpts from that diary.

Mr. Rankin. And that was after the assassination?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. When you and Lee Oswald decided to get married, was there a period of time you had to wait before it could be official?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Did you file an application and then have a period to wait?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. How long was that period of waiting?

Mrs. Oswald. Ten days.

Mr. Rankin. After it was known in Minsk that you were to marry this American, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the marriage?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we have Exhibits 66 through 91 that we are going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you to comment on them.

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Lee when I was in the hospital.

Mr. Rankin. What exhibit is that?

Mr. Thorne. These are all part of Exhibit 66. They are various miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit.

Mrs. Oswald. It was not in June that I was in the hospital. He didn't know that I was in the hospital.

Mr. Rankin. By "he" do you mean your husband Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he not know that you were in the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. Because I was going to work when I began to feel ill, and I was taken to the hospital.

Mr. Rankin. And what time was that?

Mrs. Oswald. In the morning, about 10 a.m.

Mr. Rankin. I mean about what day or month or year?

Mrs. Oswald. September 1961.

Mr. Rankin. Is that before you went to Kharkov?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

106 Mr. Rankin. And we have already discussed, or I have asked you about that time you were in the hospital.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I was there twice.

Mr. Rankin. By twice, you mean this time you have described before you went to Kharkov and the other time when you had the baby?

Mrs. Oswald. This is a letter from Inesse Yakhliel.

Mr. Rankin. That is Exhibit 67?

Mr. Thorne. No, sir, these are all part of Exhibit 66.

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because you won't be able to find out what they are in the future—A, B, C, D, or something of this kind.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Redlich, will you mark those as 66-A, B, C, and D, or however they run?

Mr. Thorne, when you say the first one marked "A", will you make it clear what that is?

Mr. Thorne. The exhibit marked "A"—let me hasten to point out that all of these pieces of paper have a mark "159R". We are denoting individually these papers by starting with A, B, C, and so on.

"A" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in this testimony by Mrs. Oswald, referring again specifically to Exhibit 66, which is composed of many such pieces of paper.

Exhibit B was the second piece of paper that was identified by Mrs. Oswald.

I believe this is the third.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a letter from Inessa Yakhliel.

Mr. Thorne. This will be identified as C.

Mrs. Oswald. The envelope of a letter that Lee wrote me, to Kharkov.

Mr. Thorne. That is identified as Exhibit D.

Mrs. Oswald. From Inessa Yakhliel.

Mr. Thorne. This is identified as Exhibit E.

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Inessa Yakhliel.

Mr. Thorne. This is identified as Exhibit F.

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Lee.

Mr. Thorne. Identified as Exhibit G.

Mrs. Oswald. From my Aunt Luba.

Mr. Thorne. This is identified as Exhibit H.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a letter from Lee.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit I.

Now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are sub-exhibits, letters, and marked 159, from A through I, all part of Exhibit 66.

Mrs. Oswald. I would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. I don't mean now.

The Chairman. She may see and have copies of any of the letters she desires connected with her testimony.

Mr. Thorne. This is Exhibit 67.

Mrs. Oswald. A photograph of Galiya Khontooleva.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 68. Exhibit 68 is two postcards, and they probably need to be identified as A and B.

Let's identify A.

Mrs. Oswald. That is a letter from Lee from New Orleans to Irving—to the home of Mrs. Paine.

And this is a letter from the mother, Lee's mother.

Mr. Thorne. This will be identified as Exhibit 68-B. Exhibit 69 is composed of two postcards. Exhibit 69-A——

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Lee, from New Orleans, addressed to me, when I lived with Ruth Paine.

Mr. Thorne. And Exhibit 69-B?

Mrs. Oswald. A letter from a girl friend from Russia, Ludmila Larionova.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 70, a postcard.

Mrs. Oswald. From my grandmother, from the mother of my stepfather.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 71. Two envelopes. 71-A——

Mrs. Oswald. From Pavel Golovachev, addressed to the address of Ruth Paine. And this is an envelope from Ruth Paine.

107 Mr. Thorne. That is Exhibit B.

Mrs. Oswald. A letter to me.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 72 is a writing. In Russian.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a reply to Lee's letter about the fact that he wanted to study at the University of Peoples Friendship, and he was refused.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 73 contains two pieces of paper. 73-A is identified as——

Mrs. Oswald. This is from the time that June was a little baby, a certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit B?

Mrs. Oswald. This is Anna Meller's address and telephone number.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 74?

Mrs. Oswald. This is Lee's library card of the State Library. I think in Moscow—the State Library.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 75 contains a writing and an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. A letter from Galiya Khontooleva, and an envelope.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 76 contains three pages of writing, together with an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. This was when Lee and I visited his brother in a city in Alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. There we met a young man who was studying Russian, and he wrote me this letter.

These are all his letters.

Mr. Thorne. This is three pages of one letter together with the envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 77 contains an envelope and two written pages—two separate pages of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Galiya Khontooleva, and the envelope.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 78 contains an envelope and two handwritten pages of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a letter from Ruth Paine to New Orleans.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 79 contains an envelope and one page of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a letter from Pavel Golovachev, from Minsk.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 80, two handwritten pages.

Mrs. Oswald. I was forced by the FBI to write an account of how much money I had received through them.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 81 contains one page of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. The same.

Mr. Thorne. By the same, you mean what?

Mrs. Oswald. A receipt for the receipt of money through the FBI.

Mr. Thorne. Are these donations?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 82 contains a page in handwriting.

Mrs. Oswald. A letter from Ruth.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 83 is a photograph.

Mrs. Oswald. The son of Ludmila Larionova.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 84 contains an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. Simply an envelope.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 85 contains an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee wrote to me in Kharkov.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 86 contains an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. From Titovetz, a letter from the Soviet Union.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 87 contains an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. From Pavel Golovachev.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 88 contains an envelope and one page of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. A letter from Ella Soboleva.

Mr. Thorne. And the letter arrived in the envelope?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 89 contains one sheet of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. Also from Soboleva.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 90.

Mrs. Oswald. I think from Ruth.

108 Mr. Thorne. This contains several pages—several sheets—three sheets which seem to be one continuous letter.

Mrs. Oswald. A letter from Ruth Paine.

Mr. Thorne. A three-page letter. Exhibit No. 91 contains an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. From Erick Titovetz.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibits 66 through 91, inclusive.

The Chairman. You have looked over all these, have you, Mr. Thorne, and your client has identified them?

Mr. Thorne. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 66 through 91, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various writings of your husband. As you look at them, would you tell us what each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please?

Mr. Thorne. This is Exhibit 92, which is a writing, a photocopy of a writing.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recognize that exhibit, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's handwriting. But I have never seen this. More correctly, I have seen it, but I have never read it.

Mr. Rankin. So you don't know what it purports to be, I take it.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. That is, you do not?

Mrs. Oswald. No.

Mr. Rankin. But you do recognize his handwriting throughout?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Thorne. May I point out to the Commission, please, this is in English. This is handwritten in English and it is typewritten in English.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 92.

The Chairman. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 92, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I should like to inform the Commission that Exhibit 92 purports to be the book that Lee Oswald wrote about conditions in the Soviet Union.

The Chairman. The one that was dictated to the stenographer?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Redlich. He had had written notes, and she transcribed them.

Mr. Thorne. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 93, many pages, handwritten, in English.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us what that is, if you know.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether it is in the handwriting of your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this is Lee's handwriting. These are all his papers. I don't know about them. Everything is in English. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 93.

The Chairman. Exhibit 93 may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 93, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I should like to advise the Commission that this Exhibit 93 purports to be a résumé of his Marine Corps experience, and some additional minor notes.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 94 is photocopies of many pages of handwriting, which is in English.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what that is. It is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 94.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 94, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Dulles. Do we know what that is?

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 94 consists of handwritten pages on which the book about Russia, Exhibit 92, was typewritten.

109 Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 95 is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting, typewritten words, which are in English.

Mrs. Oswald. I also don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you, on Exhibit 95, can you identify the handwriting on that?

Mrs. Oswald. It is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. And did you ever see the pages of that Exhibit 95 as a part of his papers and records?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Perhaps I saw them, but I don't remember them.

Mr. Rankin. But you know it is his handwriting, where the handwriting appears?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 95.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 95, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 96 is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten and in English.

Mrs. Oswald. I also don't know what that is. For me, that is a dark forest, a heap of papers.

Mr. Rankin. With regard to Exhibit 95 that has been received in evidence, I should like to inform the Commission that that is also material concerning the book, regarding conditions in Russia.

Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us with regard to Exhibit 96—do you recognize the handwriting on those pages?

Mrs. Oswald. This is all Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 96.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 96, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 96 purports to be notes for a speech or article, on "The New Era."

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 97 is a photocopy of several pages, both printed and in writing, handwriting.

Mrs. Oswald. It is amazing that Lee had written so well.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I do.

Mr. Thorne. This is also in English.

Mrs. Oswald, you state he had written so well. By that you mean what?

Mrs. Oswald. Neatly. And legibly.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 97.

The Chairman. Exhibit 97 may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 97, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 98 is three photocopy pages of handwriting in English.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what that is.

Mr. Thorne. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. That is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 97 appears to be a critique on the Communist Party in the United States by Lee Oswald.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 98.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 98, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 98 purports to be notes for a speech.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 99 is one photocopy page of handwriting in English.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what that is.

Mr. Thorne. Is this Lee's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 99.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

110 (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 99, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 100 purports to be four pages, photocopy pages, of handwriting, in English.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. I am sorry, but I don't know what it is.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 100.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 100, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I wish to inform the Commission that this purports to be answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 101 is a photocopy of one page which is printed and handwritten in English.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 101.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 101, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. This purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to his meeting at the Embassy on October 31, 1959.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 102 is photocopies of two pages, handwritten, in English.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's handwriting. I don't know what it is.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 102.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 102, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I wish to call the Commission's attention to the fact that Exhibit 102 purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 103 is two pages, two photocopy pages, of handwriting, in English.

Mrs. Oswald. From the address I see that it is a letter—it is Lee's letter, but to whom, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 103.

The Chairman. It may be admitted under that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 103, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I wish to call the attention of the Commission to the fact that Exhibit 103 is a purported draft of the letter that Lee Oswald sent to the Embassy, the Soviet Embassy, which you will recall referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the FBI to defect—had such language in the latter part of it. This draft shows that in this earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. The comparison is most illuminating.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 104 is photocopy pages of a small notebook.

Mrs. Oswald. This is my notebook, various addresses—when I was at the rest home, I simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances.

Mr. Dulles. Is this in Russia, or the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. In Russia.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 104.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 104, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 105 is a notebook——

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 104 purports to be a small notebook of Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing various writings in English and in Russian.

Mrs. Oswald. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him.

Further, I don't know what he had written in there.

111 Mr. Dulles. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go?

Mrs. Oswald. When he didn't—when he intended to.

Mr. Rankin. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17."

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I don't know what this means.

Mr. Rankin. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Now I see it.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105.

The Chairman. That will be received.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 105, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. With regard to Exhibit 102, I should like to inform the Commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits for you, along with photographs of the physical material. But I think you will want to examine some of it very closely.

I call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech. One of the items, No. 1, states, "Americans are apt to scoff at the idea that a military coup in the U.S. as so often happens in Latin American countries, could ever replace our government. But that is an idea that has grounds for consideration. Which military organization has the potentialities of exciting such action? Is it the Army? With its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered across the world? The case of General Walker shows that the Army at least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition."

Then there is an insert I have difficulty in reading.

"Which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the U.S.A.? Small size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary. Only one outfit fits that description, and the U.S. Marine Corps is a rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to the freedom of the United States. I agree with former President Truman when he said that 'The Marine Corps should be abolished.'"

That indicates some of his thinking.

The Chairman. We will just take a short break.

(Brief recess.)

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 106 for identification is a notebook.

Mrs. Oswald. This is my book, some poems by——

Mr. Thorne. It contains handwriting in Russian.

Mr. Rankin. How did you happen to write that, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. I simply liked these verses. I did not have a book of poems. And I made a copy.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 106.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 106, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 107 contains a small piece of cardboard with some writing in Russian on it.

Mrs. Oswald. This is Lee's pass from the factory.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 107.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 107, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 108 is an original one sheet of paper, with handwriting in ink, in Russian, on one page.

Mrs. Oswald. These are the lyrics of a popular song.

Mr. Rankin. A Russian popular song?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This is Armenian—an Armenian popular song.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 108.